THE

Managing
Partners
podcast

Episode # 200
Interview on 06.16.2022

Hosted By
Kevin Daisey

Featuring Attorney

Stevan Lieberman



Managing Partner of
Greenberg & Lieberman

About Stevan Lieberman

Stevan Lieberman is the Managing Partner at Greenberg & Lieberman, LLC.

Stevan is a Washington D.C. based attorney who spends most of his professional time focused on prosecution (applying for Patents, Trademarks & Copyrights), litigation in intellectual property law, especially domain name / Internet law and Internet Technologies and contractual issues. He has also been instrumental in other aspects of the domain name industry; including both registrar & registry setup and management, foreign corporation setup, participation in the Internet Commerce Association as well as representation of numerous members of the community on various matters.

Learn from his expertise and what trends are helping grow his firm on this episode of The Managing Partners Podcast!

Watch the Episode

Episode Transcript

Kevin Daisey:

All right. Hello, everyone. Welcome to another live recording of The Managing Partners Podcast. My name is Kevin Daisey, and I’ll be your host. I’m also the founder of Array Digital. We are a digital marketing agency that works exclusively with lawyers to help grow their case pipeline. Today, I got a special guest who’s not that far away from me here in DC. We have Steven Lieberman and Michael Greenberg. So thank you guys for joining me together on the show today. I’m excited to learn more about you individually and the areas of expertise that you have and your firm, and more about how you’re growing that firm. So welcome to the show guys.

Steven Lieberman:

Thanks for having us.

Kevin Daisey:

Yeah. So without further ado, really first off, want to learn more about you individually, personally, and then [inaudible 00:00:55] guys want but tell us about what inspired you individually to become an attorney and give us a little bit about your journey to where you are now.

Steven Lieberman:

At least for me, I once decided that I wanted to know the rules a long time ago in college and realized that I really didn’t know any of them and that’s what pushed me into going into law. I originally started, said I was going to do criminal law, quickly realized I didn’t really like it and had a background already in computer science. So pushed in the direction of intellectual property.

Kevin Daisey:

Excellent. And Michael, what about you?

Michael Greenberg:

Well, originally when I came out of high school, I was provisionally admitted to med school and I thought I wanted to be a medical doctor. And then in college I was taking biology and chemistry obviously, and I started to realize, “Hey, you know what, maybe I really don’t want to be a medical doctor. I can stand the blood and all that stuff but I don’t know.” I liked writing, I liked interpreting things in English classes that I took. And one day a professor said, “Hey, do you ever think about being a patent attorney? Because you can use that science background and you kind of have to reinterpret what people invent and put it in a way the patent office can understand.”

Kevin Daisey:

Yeah, I love that. I like that you both thought you wanted to do something and it turned out that is something else. And I love just hearing the journeys and the transition people will make along their path. And so I appreciate you sharing that. So and I’ve talked to quite a few patent attorneys, especially on this show and it seems most have some engineering or mechanical background or something like that, that’s really kind of taken to them where they are and struck their interest in being a patent attorney. So very interesting stuff. Can you guys give me a little bit more, I guess in depth look at the firm itself and what’s your real focus is? What’s your ideal customer maybe, what’s your real focus and where you feel you are unique in your offering?

Steven Lieberman:

We’re a relatively small firm, Michael and I are the two partners. We have a few other attorneys that work with us, senior partner, Deborah McCormick who does trademarks and a few other people we work with that we do litigation with in Virginia, as well as Emmanuel Empress who does immigration. But the main focus to the firm is intellectual property. We opened our doors in 1996 after actually meeting at a mid-size law firm and sort of took it from there. We started out focused on just patents and quickly realized that people needed an awful lot more. They needed sort of the gestalt of IP. And so we’ve been focusing on prosecution obtaining the intellectual property and helping people protect it and use that intellectual property in all different various ways, including litigation, contracts, things of that sort.

Kevin Daisey:

Excellent. Excellent. Okay. That makes sense. Well, Michael, for you, any particular industries that you’ve found a niche in, or that you’re just heavy in, or is it kind of just general law?

Michael Greenberg:

It’s kind of like a hodgepodge, that’s the way I’d put it. On the patent end for example, I mean, we might do a better pillow or a better mouse trap, but it could also be something that’s software related, an app for a phone. It could also be biotech, like nanotech particles. It could be drugs, like for a heart company. It varies. And I think Steven probably staying on the domains and the trademark and copyright end and also obviously if we don’t like something or we don’t feel competent in something, we’ll tell them that we don’t want to do it. But no, I mean our day stays varied and it kind of makes it interesting.

Kevin Daisey:

Well nice. Some prefer that and you get different challenges, you get to work on different things, and of course none of the same no matter what. But just wanted to see if there was any kind of place or niche that either naturally formed or you’re going after from outreach marketing standpoint.

Steven Lieberman:

I’d say that actually, if you want to look for a pattern, all of our clients are in some way Mavericks. They’re people that think outside the box, people who want to change things. Not your run of the mill sort of human being that you talk to and like, “Wow, how did you think of that?” So that’s more of what it is and those people think about the world and I have expertise in every area possible that you can imagine. And you got to take them as they come, because they’re always interesting and they’re always moving really fast.

Kevin Daisey:

No, it sounds like some great folks to be talking to. I’m always interested in anything like that, business or just anything you can imagine. I like to have this conversation. So I seem to get, they have some pretty amazing conversations with these folks and so that’s pretty cool. I’ve actually had some other companies in my past applications and apps, and had to go through some of this process myself. So switching gears a little bit, what’s really worked well for you all in the firm to attract or obtain new clients? Whether it’s outreach, networking, referrals, what’s really worked well for you and how do the clients come in your door today?

Steven Lieberman:

It’s sort of a hodgepodge, again. Majority of our work, I’d say 90% plus is word of mouth, that we’ve been around for a little while, I guess, 26 years. And we’ve gone to conferences and we actually started out in the very beginning advertising in the yellow pages. We had something like 150 different yellow page advertisements in the very beginning. And so we met a lot of people and talked to a lot of people over the years and people come back over and over again. And then they say, “Oh, look, that one worked really well. Let me tell my friend.” And I think that’s the majority. We do, do some online advertising. Michael can talk about that a little bit more as well.

Kevin Daisey:

Okay. Yeah. Michael, well, first off, you can’t beat a referral. You can’t beat just one more good work and that word of mouth is just priceless. But I’d like to hear more too. I know you guys have a nice website and you checked that out too while we’re thinking about it. If you’re a looking on the screen watching live, it’s aplegal.com just below. If you’re listening on the podcast, of course, just aplegal.com. You can check out the website, learn more about their firm and connect with these gentlemen as well. But Michael, tell us a little bit more about what you got going on online with the website and then some of the advertising.

Michael Greenberg:

Well, if you dial all the way back to the early days of the internet and when the firm was maybe four years old, basically if you advertised online, it was like an option, any second you wanted, you could be number one or number two, or number three on that search engine just by bidding more at that moment. So that’s the way the world was, not anymore. These days, it’s a lot harder. But online is always a good way to reach out I think no matter how you meet clients normally, or you like to meet clients, because it’s a whole United States or the whole world. So it’s a good way to do it. And I think the important thing if you’re doing online advertising, is you need to somehow establish a connection to them because after all, you’re not sitting in the same room, you’re not shaking their hand, and that’s a human type thing.

Michael Greenberg:

It’s like the old star treks, people need people and online makes it a lot harder. I think you have to establish their confidence in different ways. But I would agree with Steve that a lot of what we still do except the viruses put a little pause and everything. But a lot of what we do is we try to be involved in the community, we try to do bar association functions. We put on continuing legal education seminars, we’ll present them. You try to stay relevant even in interest that you have. I mean, if you’re interested in another type of law, well, it can’t hurt to go to a Friday breakfast and grab a coffee and a bagel. And at least you’re there and you’re meeting people, and that doesn’t cost anything. And that’s a more human way I think, to meet people even though we do online advertising.

Steven Lieberman:

We also do, trying to meet people for some of these networking meetings, although these days they’re all via zoom. So it’s always a little bit to odds if you’re staring at it through your cell phone or on the screen, it’s a little bit harder to reach out and touch people, but you do get to talk and somehow connect with people. Which is part of, I think is in fact the entire point you have to connect somehow.

Kevin Daisey:

Yeah, a hundred percent. And I was big when I started my company 2006 around that time was networking and meeting people, going out and doing it. And obviously my company exists to get exposure online, but you have to have those human elements. Video is amazing, they get to know you and listen to you, if you write articles they can read and get expertise from you before they even hire you. All those things help them go, “Okay. I feel like I like these folks, they’re helping me, I can connect with them.” So, yeah. I agree with what you’re saying Michael, you can’t just have an ad out there and know nothing that really brings them in and feel like they have some connection to them.

Kevin Daisey:

That’s the part that’s harder to do online. So I’m excited too, hopefully in 2022 to go out to some more events, go to some conferences. So hopefully we’ll see how all that goes, but I’m ready to get back to that too myself. I love to be online and doing all that stuff but at the end of the day we need to get in front of people again. So I’m excited about that,

Steven Lieberman:

Very much so.

Kevin Daisey:

Yeah. So just shifting gears a slight bit, are you all in the office, are you at home? What’s the situation with you there in DC?

Steven Lieberman:

We’ve actually been remote from probably more than a decade at this point. We started going remote long before the pandemic. More and more our employees were saying, “No, we don’t want to be in the office and we can get the work done just as well. And in fact we’re going to save a couple hours commuting.” Until we got back in what, 2005 I think, we had an office that used to have 16 people in it. And we had one secretary sitting up front and that was it. At which point we said, “This just doesn’t make an awful lot of sense.” So we moved our office to something smaller and said to everybody, “Yeah, you can work from home.”

Steven Lieberman:

So everyone’s from home. You can see my background here is my home office and there’s Michael’s home office. And we do have the office downtown, which we go to now and then, but people don’t want to, even clients don’t seem to want to meet there too often. If they do want to meet half the time, they’re like, “Well, let’s meet at a restaurant. At least I can get something to eat at the same time.” And there’s nothing wrong with eating with somebody.

Kevin Daisey:

No. That shows you guys are away ahead of the curve. And so you’re like, “Oh, we got to go remote? Yeah. So what, we’re already there.”

Michael Greenberg:

I’ll tell you, I mean, I think Steve would agree, if we think back to when we started the firm, I remember walking into Citibank and you’re trying to set up your accounts and everything. And when we told them this vision that we had back in 96 of having a kind of a distributed law firm so to speak or whatever you want to call it at that time. And they completely thought we were crazy. And they were like, “Good luck.” And in many ways I think it, I mean, I’m not saying that we weren’t like Nostradamus or something, but we had an idea what we wanted, but the world technologically wasn’t quite there. Internet wasn’t fast, it wasn’t terribly reliable if people worked at home. People had computers, but they usually weren’t terribly capable. They had tech problems and if you didn’t have a tech guy there, they were stuck. Servers had to be held somewhere, you couldn’t host them. [crosstalk 00:13:33].

Kevin Daisey:

The cloud.

Michael Greenberg:

All these issues that prevented it. But slowly the world got accelerated and that’s a good thing.

Kevin Daisey:

Well, I mean, it sounds like you had the idea, but you kept your eye on it. And so you were able to figure it out at some point, right?

Michael Greenberg:

Yeah.

Steven Lieberman:

Well, I’ve always been computer oriented. And so we actually started out in 96, networking a computer I had and Michael’s old SE and transferring files via FTP. And I had servers literally nailed to the wall.

Kevin Daisey:

That’s funny. I picture a photo of like Jeff Bezos in his office was like stuff stuck all over the walls and paper everywhere.

Steven Lieberman:

I can imagine that he was, yeah.

Kevin Daisey:

Yeah. [crosstalk 00:14:27] done.

Michael Greenberg:

Yeah. We thought we were actually pretty cool. I remember using hyper terminal that I thought I could print something on Steve’s multifunction device and likewise, he could do the same online and using Dial-up, we were pretty advanced.

Kevin Daisey:

Yeah. So you’ve been remote for quite a long, you said a decade or so. Right?

Michael Greenberg:

Although we caved in, I mean at some point we realized it was quite hard to maintain employees and to be remote. So then we kind of went physical, but as soon as we saw the opportunity, we tried to get away from it again. Yeah.

Kevin Daisey:

Yeah. I like it. And I think that’s just the way the world’s going to be. And I’ve talked to many, many attorneys and firms, all different shapes and sizes. Very few were all in the office. There’s a couple that just never left and they just said, “We’re not doing it.” But most have gone with a hybrid model. And that seems to be the most popular across the board. I’ve done a poll on LinkedIn that got, I don’t know, 20,000 different views and votes, but hybrid is what people are wanting as an employee as well. So they like them to keep being a little bit, they have the opportunity, but they don’t want to be forced to do it.

Steven Lieberman:

Right. That’s [crosstalk 00:15:40] the government’s done too. You look at the patent and trademark office and most of the examiners work from home. Two or three weeks of the month and maybe they’ll come in one week. That’s about it.

Kevin Daisey:

Interesting.

Steven Lieberman:

You have to make appointments when you have to do a meeting with one of them, so they can actually leave their house.

Kevin Daisey:

All right. Well, thanks for sharing that. And it’s just something that’s always on people’s mind, especially now, hopefully things will start to taper off and we can get back to meeting in person. Doesn’t mean we have to stay or come back to the office necessarily. And that’s the same thing I’m doing. I have 20 employees and I think I got three in today in the office physically, but most of them are going to be remote. So we don’t miss the beat, but technology is good and stable now, and back to work. So what are some of the tools that you guys use to manage your pipeline? So you have lots of different clients, but what do you use to, to manage those clients and the pipelines and things like that?

Steven Lieberman:

Well, I mean, we use a one online system called Cleo, that’s for part of the process. We also have written a bunch of our own custom software for like escrow domains is custom, Wiley fish is custom that when we need something, it’s relatively easy to put things together and connect different pieces of software via API.

Kevin Daisey:

Excellent.

Steven Lieberman:

And we have also processes internal so that Jacob knows that when he sees something, he has to pass it over to Shannon, Shannon manages it and watches and sees what’s happening with David, et cetera, just sort of goes that way and everyone knows what their role is.

Kevin Daisey:

Absolutely love it. And that’s the basis for any good business right there, processes in place, systems. So thanks for sharing that. So give me one more details about how that operates in the software you developed.

Steven Lieberman:

The software we developed like at least within escrow domains really does take everyone, the clients step by step through the process. They’ll come in, they’ll fill out their information, escrow domain is mostly for online domain name escrow, but we have other stuff for other different types of applications and different processes. But as an example, someone comes in, they say want to start a process, they’ll fill out the form as to who they are and who the person on the other side is. They’ll both agree to the contract or upload a custom contract. And the system will automatically send out emails acknowledging the steps as they go through each time they do the next piece that’s required of them. At the same time it’s going to notify David, tell David what’s going on. He’ll be able to see it in the admin panel on his side, that shows where he is in the process.

Steven Lieberman:

And if there’s anyone has issues, and of course there’s always issues, then he’ll step in and say, “Hey, you need to do this. You need to do that.” Nothing is ever perfectly clear. But it’s nice in that it makes it very easy to go step by step through the process of in escrow or the process of obtaining a trademark, what we start out with, what’s your basic information? And then an email goes out to them automatically saying, “Here’s the additional information that we need.” And then it comes back in, they’ll get their retainer agreement and schedule, and they’ll have to sign it, send in whatever funds are necessary and then move forward to get the work done. Once it’s done, you click on the button and it says, “Oh, look, it’s done. And then keep moving.”

Kevin Daisey:

That is beautiful. And so I’m always trying to improve those processes and we got a lot of work to do, but usually a hodgepodge of APIs, Zapier, different task management systems. So I think a lot of smaller companies they’ll kind of put together their own kind of system, but it sounds really awesome what you guys have and that’s super important. So just based on that, either one of you have a book you may recommend to anyone listening, any attorneys that maybe don’t have those systems in place and those processes or any kind of technology that’s helping them out?

Steven Lieberman:

Not really.

Michael Greenberg:

Yeah, I don’t. I mean, the only thing I will throw in that aside from a book, in addition to everything Steve said, that’s completely right and true, is that I think the people also make a big difference. You can’t do it unless you have the right people. Whether you’re in the office or out of the office. You have to know that you’re in sync. It’s almost like a team, you can have great players but if they don’t get along, it’s not going to work. And I think that’s crucial, especially when you’re a remote or distributed or whatever you want to call it, or even in the virus time and you’re doing hybrid, I think it’s important that you know that you can count on somebody even if you’re not talking, you’re still doing what you need to be doing.

Kevin Daisey:

Yeah. Yeah. So I’ll always recommend some books. I was just throwing out there, I was thinking you guys have probably read some of the books I have, but E-Myth which is actually, there’s a group called how to manage a small law firm, which is an organization, I think they recommend that book to their members. But E-Myth is a really good book. All about the franchise model, so think of McDonald’s, everything’s got a process, there’s a step by step. So exactly what you guys have developed pretty much, which is great. Yeah. You have to have the right people in the right seats, which is super important.

Kevin Daisey:

So another book is Traction, which I think is really good to cover that. But again, what you guys have done is exactly what those books teach. So, for anyone that hasn’t figured out themselves, maybe you could check those books out. It means what you guys have done with that and if you’re on the leading edge of some of this stuff that I think hopefully a lot of young attorneys starting out, starting their own firms. Yeah. What I hear a lot is, they’re not taught how to run a business. They kind of have to figure it out, have some mentors and ask others.

Michael Greenberg:

I agree. As I said to Steve, I think last week that I mentioned to somebody that we happen to be lawyers and we’re selling legal services, but for that matter, we could be selling pizza. You’re still running a business and there’s a lot that has nothing to do with the practice of law.

Steven Lieberman:

It’s funny you say that. I grew up with a father who ran a medical practice and my sister runs a medical practice. And there really isn’t a giant difference other than obviously you have to be physically in the office for medical practice. It’s hard look at somebody and prod them if you’re not physically in front of them. But it’s really very much the same thing. You have to have a step by step process and you have to know what happens after each one. Of course, odd things come up in every single practice. And therefore you have to be available to your employees to be able to answer questions. What do we do in this particular situation?

Steven Lieberman:

So availability and communications becomes very, very important. We like to IM, we use online messenger and it makes it very, very easy to get a message, even if you can’t look at it immediately, you can see it even when you’re on the telephone. And if it’s an emergency, someone will say it’s an emergency. Or if not, you’ll get to it 10 or 15 minutes later when you finish whatever you’re doing, or an hour. So it’s a combination of those. So, if you can always go look at what your doctor’s office does and copy what they do, because it’s not the same software, but it’s still the same idea.

Kevin Daisey:

No. I mean, communication is the biggest thing that I know we’re always working on and trying to improve. But part of that process, right? That they’re alerted the next thing, the next step, what we need from them, what you guys need from them. So it’s bringing them in that intake process and everything going smooth, everyone knows what to do. They know what’s going on. And I think the biggest complaints I hear about law firms when I talk to folks is that they just don’t know really what’s going on. I don’t know where my case is. I don’t know when I’m going to hear back. And so I think that’s the biggest flaw I see out there. It’s not that the attorneys can’t do good work. It’s just there’s no communication mechanism.

Steven Lieberman:

Yeah. Very much so that. And there’s got to be one spotter to look for particular things. If you don’t know where to go look for it. You’re sort of done.

Kevin Daisey:

Yeah. A hundred percent. Well, yeah. Kudos to you all on what you have in place. And I think it’s really cool that you’ve kind of developed your own systems, your own technology software. So hopefully a lot of people will listen to that and say, “Okay, what can I do? What is out there?” Cleo, obviously a big piece there, that’s pretty popular system there. So what is one thing you would share with a young attorney listening? Just a word of advice. If they’re just getting started, just like you guys did, what’s something you would share with them? Each one of you, I guess. Just put you on the spot.

Steven Lieberman:

Be open to change I think. As I said, I started out thinking about doing criminal law and realized pretty quickly I didn’t like it. That you got to be doing something that you like frankly, if you’re not interested in what you’re doing, it’s going to turn to hell. If you like it, it’s a lot of fun. I mean, I love that we get to see all these new weird ideas, and new concepts, and new businesses long before they’re out in the public. It tickles me. And I really enjoy the process of seeing someone come to us and saying, “Hey, I got this great idea.” And that’s all it is, something they thought of when they’re walking down the street and turning it into 10 or 15 years later, a major corporation.

Steven Lieberman:

And we’ve seen that over and over again. And many of those people that came to us, is just one guy walking down the street is turned into large companies that are still clients, which is just so much fun. So try to have fun with what you’re doing. Really, if you don’t enjoy it, go try another area of law. Law is great in that there’s such a plethora of different areas to look at and play with. You get there’s always a little bit of grind, no matter what, but don’t let the grind take over.

Kevin Daisey:

Excellent. Great word of advice. Michael, what you got?

Michael Greenberg:

Yeah. I mean, I would tell somebody, if you’re going to start your own firm and especially if you tend to be younger, if you’re in your twenties or late twenties or early thirties, don’t be discouraged and don’t give up because I think the world kind of says, “Well, you’re not supposed to be a partner or be in a managing type role or in charge until you’re much older.” Which might be true, but it doesn’t have to be. So don’t necessarily follow that structure if you don’t think that’s for you and do what you want. I mean, it’s a time to be creative and you can mold and make things the way you want it. The kicker is, you have to have people paying you to do it, but separate from that, do what you want to do.

Michael Greenberg:

Because I think both Steve and I, I remember when we used drive back and forth from the law firm behind the Pentagon where we worked that, we were stuck into traffic. After you put in long hours, then you only have to do it again the next day, driving back and forth. And it’s not like you don’t enjoy being with people, but we could see a different way to live and a different way to get work done and have fun. And so if you see that, don’t give up, try to make it happen.

Kevin Daisey:

Excellent. I love both of those and I think too when you’re young and I was like 23 when I started my company and you’re young, so people are like, “Who is this young person, this young guy.” Whether they trust you or even think that you can do the work or have the expertise. And so you got to fight through that, but next thing you know, you’re 30, you’re going, “Oh, okay. Now people will actually listen to me.” But it’s what you do during those times. Right? I think that defines you and puts you on the right path. So. Excellent. I love that. So last question for you guys, you started the firm in, you said 94 or 96?

Steven Lieberman:

96.

Kevin Daisey:

  1. So looking forward, hopefully COVID will just disappear at some point here. What is the plans? What’s the growth look like the next two to five years? What do you guys have on the radar?

Steven Lieberman:

We’ve been enjoying, it’s not really that there’s going to be giant changes. We’ve been extraordinarily consistent over the last 10 years, bringing in almost within 10 or $20,000, the exact same amount. We have found that as we add admin employees, that we are able to accept and do more work. So we’re doing more litigation, we’re doing more and hiring more complex transactions, which is enjoyable because after you’ve written 3000 patents or done 400 domain theft cases, you do want to start looking at other things. So we’re slowly adding and creating more relationships with our clients where they rely on us more, acting more as general counsel role, as well as being outside counsel. And at least I’ve enjoyed that a lot, creating those relationships as you end up talking to the client every single day or every few days. So, I guess I think things are going to go more in that direction.

Kevin Daisey:

Excellent. Michael?

Michael Greenberg:

Well, I mean I know not a huge amount so much, but in the last year or two, Steve and I have talked about how we don’t want to be responsive every week, or every month, or every day, or every hour. But we want to kind of shape our work. So it’s more of a balance between work and actually enjoying life even more. Because as you get older every year, you start to realize your days might be numbered. So, we are trying to find either people who are more capable of taking care of tasks without our constant monitoring or we’re trying to develop workflows so that things kind of happen on their own.

Michael Greenberg:

And we don’t have to be quite as hands on as we always have been, although obviously it’s our firm, so we always have to be. But I think that’s kind of a direction we’ve been kind of thinking, because I mean, I’ve said to Steve that I know and I’ve heard stories of those who have retired, including relatives and I don’t know if we necessarily relish having that sudden fall off of what we do every day. It’s just, we want more of a balance and we’re trying to strive toward that.

Kevin Daisey:

I think those are great goals and huge things to accomplish. And I think it’s easier said than done, right? So you want to back out a little bit and you’re not selling or you’re not retiring, but you want to get a little bit more free time some family time. So it makes a lot of sense. I’m already trying to do that myself. But that makes sense, those are big goals. I love it. So nice and steady towards that direction I think will pay off big for you guys.

Steven Lieberman:

Hopefully a good friend of mine he was my first boss, before even the law firm where I met Michael. And he’s 88 now and still likes to keep his hand in and he’ll do one piece of litigation at a time. And he is just fine. And it is talk about having experience. He doesn’t work lots of hours, but he likes to keep his hand in and get the hell out of the house otherwise I think his wife would kill him.

Kevin Daisey:

Well, honestly, I believe that keeps someone going, it keeps you alive. And some of the older folks that I know that, I mean they own businesses in their eighties, nineties still working, still show up. They’re not there all day. But it keeps them moving. And you see a lot of people retire in their sixties and seventies, and pass away very quickly. I just think we can’t just go a hundred miles an hour and then stop all of a sudden.

Steven Lieberman:

Yeah. Agreed. Yeah. You got to keep doing something. Keep your brain moving.

Kevin Daisey:

Yeah. And I think my wife would kill me too. So that’s why I’m in the office today actually. So I had to get out of the house every once in a while too. So, well, I appreciate both of you sharing your story, sharing more about your firm, their website again is aplegal.com and you go check that out. Is there any other way that folks could reach out, other attorneys in the area, other IP lawyer, anyone that can maybe be referral partners? If we have a lot of attorneys that come on this show and a big list on our newsletter as well, which I’ll talk more about in a second. But what’s another way people could reach out and connect with you.

Steven Lieberman:

Well, we’ve got a toll free, which is (888) 275-2757. I don’t think toll frees really matter any longer. So we are obviously, Michael and I both always on our cell phones and always available that if you call the toll free number or (202) 625-7000 same thing, that’s an easy way. They can always email us at partners@aplegal.com or questions@aplegal.com in order to get somebody to email them back. And then of course we’re always on every single IM messenger client you can possibly imagine. So just search either one of our names on literally any one of them and you’ll find us nice. So we’re eminently available and always happy to chat.

Michael Greenberg:

Yeah. We’re pretty normal guys who happen to be attorneys and have a law firm, but we’re the guy you meet while you’re having a barbecue or Starbucks.

Kevin Daisey:

I love it. I come to DC every once in a while I’ll have to arrange-

Steven Lieberman:

Yeah. We know a great barbecue place. So come.

Kevin Daisey:

Excellent. Yeah. My wife works for a company that’s out of DC, although she works from home here in Virginia Beach area. Well, thank you guys so much for sharing everything about your firm. Anyone listening today, obviously lots to take away with the processes and systems and how important those are. And you can intake a lot of clients, do a lot more cases and help a lot more people if you have those in place. So just think about that again. I would recommend E-Myth and Traction two awesome books that I continue to reread, but that would help you I think for those that don’t have, Steve and Michael to talk to you right this second, maybe help guide them towards what they’ve been able to accomplish on their own. So anything else you guys like to share before I wrap us up?

Steven Lieberman:

If you need help with intellectual property, prosecution, litigation, or anything pertaining to domain names or internet law, give us a call, happy to talk to you for free, happy to consult on any cases or if you need local counsel in the area.

Michael Greenberg:

Yeah, we don’t just do it but we like doing it actually. So, yeah.

Kevin Daisey:

Well, yeah. I would say any attorneys out there that maybe have a case they’re not able to handle or not comfortable with, or maybe you don’t even do IP or maybe you don’t handle that. Maybe you’re general counsel or whatever, but you need a referral source, reach out to these guys and they can at least talk to you and walk through it, maybe it’s a good referral. So reach out to them, connect with them. This episode will be available soon on arraylaw/podcast. So arraylaw.com/podcast. So we’ll have this feature up on our website. We’ll also be getting the audio version up on our podcast on every single platform. So we’ll be on apple, Google, Spotify, and everything in between iHeartRadio. So we’ll have that out soon. And then also we have The Managing Partners newsletter, which goes out every single week.

Kevin Daisey:

We feature upcoming episodes. We also have the book club, which is actual books written by attorney guests that we’ve had on the show. And then other kinds of great information either shared by attorneys or marketing tips from us. So please check that out as well. And if you need help with marketing, website development, design, social media, adverting that’s what we do. So if anyone needs that help reach out to us, raylaw.com, happy to talk to you again for free, just like these gentlemen, whether it’s telling you where to go referring to someone else or for the right fit. So that’s it. I appreciate it guys. Anything else?

Steven Lieberman:

Thank you very much. We really appreciate it Kevin.

Michael Greenberg:

Happy holidays. Happy new year. Yeah.

Steven Lieberman:

Yep, that’s true. Don’t drink too much.

Kevin Daisey:

That is upon us. It’s coming quick. But just like I told to these gentlemen before the show, it is pretty busy up until the holiday. So, we got a week and a half left to go pretty much and then we can relax for a little bit, hopefully. So happy holidays, everyone. Thank you so much, gentlemen, for joining me today, you can stay on with me for some moment. We’ll see you backstage. Everyone else have a great holiday, happy new year and we’ll see you soon.

 

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