THE

Managing
Partners
podcast

Episode # 156
Interview on 01.12.2022

Hosted By
Kevin Daisey

Featuring Attorney

John Berry



Managing Partner of
Berry Law

About John Berry

John Berry Jr. is the Managing Partner at Berry Law in Nebraska.

John gained innumerable awards for his success as a trial attorney and has spoken nationally about trial strategy, constitutional rights, and PTSD among Veterans. He’s been featured in The Washington Post, Thrive Global, and ESPN, and has appeared on ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, and CW channels in various markets.

Learn from his expertise and what trends are helping grow his firm on this episode of The Managing Partners Podcast!

Watch the Episode

Episode Transcript

Kevin Daisey:
Okay, we are recording. Welcome everyone, thank you for tuning in to another live recording of The Managing Partners Podcast. I’m Kevin Daisey, your host, and also the founder of Array Digital. We help law firms fill their case pipeline with digital marketing. And today, I have a really awesome guest, very successful attorney, John Berry, welcome to the show.

John Berry :
Thanks so much for having me, Kevin.

Kevin Daisey:
Yes, sir. Actually had a friend of mine in high school who was named John Berry and I don’t know if [inaudible 00:00:34]. You look a little more successful than him but … John, again, thanks for coming on the show. I’m excited to learn your story and for the audience to learn what you’ve been able to do but let’s start off by hearing your journey, your story, what got you in to being an attorney and what’s the journey been like to get to where you are today?

John Berry :
Sure. Some may say I had an easy path. My father was a trial attorney, a famous trial attorney. He’s still licensed and we still pay him but he doesn’t come in the office much. He’s in his 80s now but my father was a Vietnam veteran and in Vietnam, he defended the commander of the fifth special forces in a murder case. Nixon dismissed the case and that was his first big famous case. He moved to New York City, where he worked with a guy named Henry Rothblatt and was a well known criminal defense lawyer. And then for family reasons, he moved back to Nebraska and he started a practice there in the 70s. And so as he was representing people in high profile cases, whether it was a injury case or a big divorce or a criminal case, he started coming across veterans. And what he noticed was, a lot of those veterans had problems and we called it back then shell shock syndrome. No one had diagnosed post traumatic stress disorder but there were a lot of veterans that were having issues with divorce or DUI or domestic violence.

John Berry :
And it was all related to PTSD. And so he was helping them get service connected through the VA so they could get treatment, so they could get benefit. And so that was just part of what he did. And I think that … My dad always told me, “You never get rich being a criminal defense lawyer, nor should you want to be.”

John Berry :
Right. It wasn’t a big practice that he wanted to scale. He just wanted to support and defend the constitution the same way it was when he took that oath and he wanted to help veterans. And so a lot of his friends went into big personal … They were all advertising [inaudible 00:02:39] on TV, personal injury. But here’s the funny thing, is he never did any of that advertising. In fact, I was talking to Harlan Schillinger, I don’t know if you know the guy, the godfather of legal marketing, right. And he was helping some of my dad’s colleagues get on TV in the 80s but my dad didn’t need that because he was a Renaissance man. And in Lincoln, Nebraska, where we’re from, he was the drive time Lincoln guy from four to six. The radio show was paying him to be on from four to six. And so it was tremendous marketing for his firm, when you’re getting paid to be on the most popular radio show at the most popular time. And so he did a great job.

John Berry :
Now, he was a phenomenal trial lawyer, won a lot of famous cases. Tried cases in 24 states, a lawyer’s lawyer but he was a horrible businessman. And so people … Yeah. People tell me, “Well, if I would’ve come and taken over my dad’s firm, I’d be doing really well too.”

John Berry :
But the truth is, that’s not how it was. In fact, when I came to the firm, the office manager said, “Hey, I just want to let you know, this is your inheritance. We’re in debt about 50 grand and here’s all the bills coming in.”

John Berry :
And my dad, he got huge cases but he just … I think he was too focused on the case, he was never focused on the business. He had a lot of partners at one point, that partnership dissolved because he wasn’t watching what was happening to the money, right. And that created some issues and created some distrust with those other partners. I think that happens in businesses where if you’re not paying attention and everybody’s not on the same page, there’s going to be distrust. And even if everybody’s being completely honest and upfront, there’re going to be problems and everybody has to pay attention to the numbers. And so he really didn’t. And that created some tension and the partnership dissolved. And that was a very fortunate thing for me, because then when I came to the firm, there were no other equity partners other than my father. It gave me a great opportunity. And I worked with him for a few years and before …

John Berry :
I should note that before I went to law school, I was an infantry officer in the army and I was in the army for a while. I deferred law school, I got out and then I went … After I got out of the army, I went to law school but the thing was, the army was still paying for my law school. I stayed in the National Guard. I needed a way to pay for it, right. Where I am … The Army’s paying for my law school and then they gave me a company command. Now, I’m a company commander. I’m a new lawyer. I’m exhausted, right. I’m working weekends on National Guard stuff. I’m working 60 hour weeks, it’s just too much. And I go to my commander, I said, “Look, this has been great but I think at the end of my commitment, I am done.”

John Berry :
He said, “John, it sounds like you’re pretty busy.”

John Berry :
I said, “I am.”

John Berry :
I said, “I just can’t keep doing this.”

John Berry :
He says, “You don’t have to do everything anymore.”

John Berry :
I said, “Really?”

John Berry :
He said, “No, you guys are … ”

John Berry :
And this is 2004. He’s like, “Your company’s deploying to Iraq, so don’t worry about it. You only have to do one thing.”

John Berry :
I deployed to Iraq and I think one mistake we made is instead of trying to find replacements and continue to grow, was we really shrunk down the firm. And so then when I came back, we built it back up and it was a long struggle to build everything back up, if you can imagine leaving a small practice for 14 months and then coming back and building it all up, rebuilding the marketing and keep in mind too, this is 2005, 2006. By the time I left, I was cursing the fact that there were two yellow books, right. And you had to pay for ads in both. And by the time I come back, there’s Google AdWords.

Kevin Daisy:
They’re gone.

John Berry :
And so there’s all sorts of different … Now, the whole game has changed. And so it took a while to get back on our feet but the last five years in a row, we’ve made the Inc. 5,000 for fastest growing private companies because we really learned some important lessons. And a big part of it is culture, right. We’re about a hundred employees, we’re about 40% veterans. Almost our entire leadership team is veterans. We don’t sit around. We have great productive meetings. We use EOS but at these meetings, it’s just like a military staff, where the staff comes up with a recommendation for the commander and the commander can either follow the recommendation or not follow it. Not everybody has to be in agreement but we will fight violently for our positions in those meetings on how the firm should be run. But once we lose, “Okay, this is the way the organization is going.”

John Berry :
We smile. We walk out of the room as friends, as colleagues, and then we go tell our team, “Hey, we’ve got great news. This is what’s happening.”

John Berry :
Even if it wasn’t our position, right. Because we support the team, we support the commander and that’s just part of our DNA and it’s part of our culture.

Kevin Daisey:
[inaudible 00:07:28].

John Berry :
Yeah. That’s helped us grow. I think, in terms of … We’ve diversified quite a bit. While we have a national veterans law practice, we represent thousands of veterans, we have veterans in every state. Locally, we do a lot of criminal defense and PI work. And it’s great to have that diversification just because you want the diverse talent. It’s amazing to me, the due process arguments will come up in our VA cases, which is administrative law, right. The veterans administration is completely administrative law but then you get our appellate lawyers from our PI cases or our criminal cases who can weigh in on some of the more complex issues, really give some great ideas to our team. But overall, I would say the real magic has been having a culture where it’s the military camaraderie. We’re going to be hard on each other. We’re going to push each other but it’s because we respect each other. And the ultimate … It’s a meritocracy, right.

John Berry :
The ultimate compliment is not necessarily going to be a promotion because everybody knows who the leaders are. The ultimate compliment is when people are following you and they don’t have to, whether that’s vertical leadership or lateral leadership, the key I think, is culture and leadership. As we started investing in marketing, we talked about this a little before the show, going from six figures to seven figures, it was a lot of direct response marketing. And so we had to measure everything. And so whether it was a newsletter we sent out or it was PPC or it was SEL right, Google has great tools for that. And we were able to attribute everything … And the way we answer the phone is, “Who referred you to us?”

John Berry :
And we built a culture referrals but as we crested that eight figure mark, we really started to see that what we needed to focus on now, was building the brand and advertising. And we had enough of a cushion to do that. And then we became the American veterans law firm. And that was our identity because we were veterans who were helping veterans, real lawyers for real veterans. And it’s been an interesting journey because we’ve seen other non-attorney organizations pop up in our industry now. And for those of us and other firms that have been doing it for a long time, it’s been interesting and concerning and I think ultimately, that’s going to work out because I think that a lot of these … People are going to need lawyers as if the tactics they’re using do not work. And believe me, in the practice, we want the veterans to have all the tactics so they can open their claims, file their claims, appeal their claims. We’re there for when they’ve tried everything and it didn’t work, “And now we need a lawyer.”

John Berry :
And the great thing about veterans law, is it’s a contingency based practice, at least for us. And so we don’t get paid unless the veteran wins and we get to meet some heroes that way that we would never otherwise meet. It’s great. As you know, PI’s a little bit different. Criminal’s a little bit different than that but at the end of the day, we’ve really decided that we want to be a hero to our heroes. And so we’re very selective about the clients we take, which I know sounds weird, right, “No, no, no. If you’re a small firm, you take everybody. You got to bring in the clients.”

John Berry :
I had a friend that had a firm and he said, “If a guy comes in my office with $500 in his pocket, he’s not leaving with it, right. We’re taking that case.”

John Berry :
I said, “Man, that is the worst attitude you can have because all you’re going to have is a bunch of unhappy clients at the end of it. If you’re taking everybody and you’re not being specific … ”

John Berry :
It’s better to have less good clients who are aligned with your mission and your core values than it is to have everybody. And I’ve seen that mistake happen time and time again, where attorneys … Yeah. And we’ve hired attorneys from other firms with that same mindset and they’ve got too many clients, they’re getting a ton of complaints, things are falling apart for them. It’s because they weren’t selective about who they were and who they were taking. And I think not being selective about who you are … What are your core values and how is that present in your marketing? And if it’s not present in your marketing, then your prospective clients aren’t going to see that and then you’re going to be stuck with whoever sees your message and comes in. And I think your conversion rates are going to be lower but also your client satisfaction’s going to be a lot lower. And so for us, it really has been a game of, “Let’s figure out our core values, let’s make sure the team gets them. Let’s build that culture.”

John Berry :
And we’ve done a lot to build that … It’s a lot of work.

Kevin Daisey:
We’re big on core values and the culture and the team and that should flow over to the clients, I think. And I think that attracts the right client when they see how you are and how you act and how your team responds and what the culture is, that should attract a certain clientele for you. And you got to be selective. We’ve fired clients many times in the past where, “Hey, this is not for us. You’re the wrong client for us. It’s our fault. It was us, not you.”

Kevin Daisey:
You have to be able to do that in business. I love everything you had to say. I think we’re very similar in those aspects. EOS, amazing. Traction, the book Traction, we follow that to a T. You got to have systems in place, you have to have those things in place to really grow. This is your website too, you mentioned this before. PTSDlawyers.com. People can check that out. Take a look at the website. I love what you’re doing with veterans. I’m in Virginia, Norfolk. We have the Navy Seals here, we have the biggest Navy base in the country. I’m very familiar and know lots of veterans myself. Good on you guys for doing that work and hiring veterans as well. That’s a big thing in our area, for companies to get some of these guys, especially your Navy Seals and special warfare guys, trying to get them into positions that … We have a lot of training programs around here and getting them into all kinds of different jobs. That’s interesting. Yeah, thanks for sharing that. You said around a hundred folks full time.

John Berry :
Yes.

Kevin Daisey:
Okay, cool. Tell us too, when you get to past 20, 30, 40, 50 people, managing the culture and making the right hires and controlling everything, share with us a little bit about how that process has been like and maybe what changes you’ve had to make along the way.

John Berry :
Sure. Like I said, my friend would take any case that came in the door, right. The problem was, he took any case that came in the door. He didn’t want to hire people. And when he did hire people, he hired them cheap. And then what would happen, is he would get bad team players and it’s just a different philosophy. Whereas with us, we want to hire the absolute best people. And the real secret, is that if you hire someone really good, good people hang out with good people, right. You’re the sum of the five people you hang out with.

Kevin Daisey:
[inaudible 00:14:49].

John Berry :
Yeah. And the bad ones hang out with bad ones but I can tell you, one of the best decisions I made and this was a very difficult decision, but the best criminal defense lawyer in the state of Nebraska is my wife, Mallory Hughes. And it was interesting, once I hired her though … I was like, “I don’t want to hire my wife. I don’t want to … ”

John Berry :
But our lifestyles were so similar. We’re both just type A and she’s an obsessive, I’m an obsessed. We’re obsessed about winning. I hired her and then all of a sudden, all this talent came with her. Everybody was knocking on our door, right. Like, “Wait a minute, you’ve got Mallory. Hey, I want to be on this team.”

John Berry :
Right.

Kevin Daisey:
Yeah, [inaudible 00:15:29] often.

John Berry :
And so I think you hire the best people. And even at the staff level, we’ve hired some great veterans who have brought on other veterans and it’s like, “Wait a minute. I know that guy, he was in my unit.”

John Berry :
Or we were at the Silkies Hike, which is a thing the Irreverent Warriors do for PTSD and suicide awareness. And so great people have their own sources right, of not only referrals but potential employees. A guy named Bob Burg wrote a book called, Endless Referrals. And he said, “Everybody … ”

John Berry :
This is before social media when he wrote it, he said, “Everybody has 200 people they’re close enough to that they can refer business to, right.”

John Berry :
And I know that as lawyers, we all know at least one person every year who gets in a car wreck, one person who gets arrested and one person who gets divorced, right. Now, we may not handle all those practice areas. We’ll do the criminal, we’ll do the injury, the car accident. We won’t do the divorce but we can refer that out. And I think, even our referral partners right, we want to refer to people who have great networks because great people generally have great networks. And you hear that saying all the time, “Your network is your net worth.”

John Berry :
And I think it’s a little bit backwards because really, if you’re a great person, you’re going to have a good network and you’re going to have those people around. We love to hire people that are just force multipliers. As soon as we hire that great person, it seems like the recruiting becomes a lot easier because if they’re great in their community, people know it and they’ve got five great friends. And if we provide a great culture and we’re paying well, then, “Hey, here’s an opportunity.”

John Berry :
And great people want to be together. And it’s really no different than the military. The thing we loved about the military was showing up every day with a team of champions, right. And so that’s what I try to bring back, is that feeling I had when I was a new second lieutenant showing up as an infantry platoon leader and my platoon was the best platoon in the battalion. And I’d show up for PT at 5:30, my non-commissioned officers have been there since five. And every day, they just pushed me and we pushed each other. We wanted to be the best. And when you can bring that to an organization, it is awesome and it’s infectious. The same way whining and complaining and [inaudible 00:17:40] infectious like cancer, it destroys your company.

John Berry :
When you have awesome people that are just highly energized and motivated and great people, it works well. And the downside is yeah, you got to say no. There’s a lot of clients we have to say no to. There’s a lot of potentially good employees that just don’t fit our mold, don’t fit our mold and don’t make our standards we have to say no to but, I think that that’s all part of it because believe me, the biggest mistake, the most expensive mistake is a cheap employee, right. If they screw something up, you could get sued, you could lose your biggest clients, bar complaints, bad things can happen if you’re not hiring the absolute best and then doing everything you can to retain them.

Kevin Daisey:
No, I love it, man. And so one of our core values is winning and passion, but a hundred percent, if your culture’s at a certain point where it’s where you want it to be, like where yours is right, then someone that’s not a fit stands out like a sore thumb. And usually, they get weeded out or decide to leave on their own because they don’t fit. And we’ve pretty much got to a point where no one’s going to get in the door anyway because of our process. It sounds like you’ve nailed that down but if someone walks in the room and they’re uncomfortable with your people, then they’re not going to be a fit. They’re going to disqualify themselves. And I think that’s really powerful in what you’ve done there. It’s awesome but that’s the kind of folks you want to have around you. And I’ll just speak from experience. We hired a new SEO manager a little while back, immediately brought two of the best people with him that just wanted to work for him, just from other really reputable companies. And they’re like, “We’re going with him wherever he’s going.”

Kevin Daisey:
And they came in immediately and we’re like, “Yeah, we’ll hire both of them.”

Kevin Daisey:
It’s really powerful when we can do stuff like that. But everything you just said was spot on, a hundred percent. Good people know other good people, they’re great recruiting tools. And I think you draw in a certain type of person when you are putting that energy out, right. People are starting to watch … We have people that call us and say, “Hey, I’ve been watching you guys forever. I want to work there.”

Kevin Daisey:
And we don’t have to go recruit, necessarily. Kudos to what you’ve done there, it sounds awesome. I bet your team meetings in the morning are pretty fun, so I’ll have to come visit.

John Berry :
Exactly. Sometimes they’re painful though because we’re brutally honest, but I can tell you, it’s been interesting with our marketing as well, that as we’ve done billboards and a little bit more traditional, what we’ve seen is … We’ve seen our referral numbers go through the roof, right. You would’ve assume, “Oh, yeah. Well, it’s not direct.”

John Berry :
But I would say, referrals and job applicants and … And once you’re doing something well, it’s really important to amplify and multiply it. And if you don’t do that, then it’s just not going to happen organically at the rate that you want. And you really have to be clear on what it is you want, what your goals are going to be and make sure the team is aligned with those goals because if they’re not, it’s not going to happen. And it can get ugly. And I think one of the bad … I guess, the dirty secret or the bad news of the rapid growth is that you will outgrow great people. And the person who got you to become a $5 million firm, is going to be the bottleneck that has to touch everything, that will prevent you from being a $10 million firm. And look, I think that Chip Wilson, the founder of Lululemon said this, he said, “Look, hiring bad … Or firing bad people is easy. Firing good people is hard.”

John Berry :
And I think at some point, you have to come to the realization that if you don’t have a good growth plan, the people who are your best players today will be preventing you from growing tomorrow. Or even worse, you may be doing them a disservice by keeping them on the team because you’re stunting their growth. And so we have a great alumni program when people … It used to be when we were smaller …

Kevin Daisey:
I love that.

John Berry :
If someone left, I’d be like, “Oh, man. I can’t believe they left. They’re so unloyal to us.”

John Berry :
Now, I realize like, “If they left, then it’s on me.”

John Berry :
But I’ve also had some really good team players that I’ve had to have that difficult conversation with myself and them, especially in-house marketing, right. It’s like, “Look, you’re a superstar and you’re right out of college. And you have grown so much since you’ve been here. You’re not our next CMO, you don’t have that mid-level experience and we can’t give you that here. I love you, you’re great. Your performance is top notch.”

Kevin Daisey:
“I’m going to set you free.”

John Berry :
Yeah, “But I would feel guilty if you didn’t get the opportunity. And so if you want that other opportunity, I’ll help you find it and I’ll get you there and I’ll do whatever I can to get you there but I don’t want you to stay here because of us if you know that … ”

John Berry :
Because then what happens, is they get complacent, they don’t like it. Then you as the leader, if you’re not handling it right, then everybody looks at you, “Why isn’t this leader enforcing the standards? Why don’t they have integrity? Why are they letting this guy slide?”

John Berry :
Right.

Kevin Daisey:
Yeah, you got to take the full responsibility. And I’ve had the same situations. We’ve lost some really amazing people along the way. And I find a lot of value … We do one-on-ones with our team, my managers, at least. And my managers do one-on-ones with their team members every single week. And we also have plans for them, where we see them going next year, what the growth plans are. And the second that doesn’t really align with what they want or their plans, they might say, “Hey, here’s what I want to do.”

Kevin Daisey:
And that doesn’t align with where we’re going, then the situation becomes, “Hey, I think you’d be better if you were to go pursue something else.”

Kevin Daisey:
Or, “What can we do to help you get into a position somewhere that you want to?”

Kevin Daisey:
And we’ve had some go off and start their own businesses. And we knew that they were going to start their own business and we were told by some people when we did the cultural index, “These people are going to be hard to keep here. They’re going to want to run their own business.”

Kevin Daisey:
And sure enough, they go off and we’re still good friends, no hard feelings. They’re running their own companies now. It’s decisions you’ve got to make but you’re completely right. And I think the challenging part is when you’re growing and you know that person’s not going to be able to take you but you love them to death, they’ve been here … And what do you do? Do you demote them or do you have someone higher over top them or is it just time for them to go? Yeah.

John Berry :
Yeah, yeah. And there’s no easy answer. Demotions usually don’t sit well with the rest of the organization. It’s like that hate and discontent right, just starts … It can catch fire and you don’t want that in your organization but yeah, I think you have that moral obligation to grow your people and grow your team. And once, I was talking to a veteran that owned … Well, I’ll just say, this is a billion dollar company, and he just said, “John, for what you guys are doing for the constitution, for our veterans … ”

John Berry :
He’s like, “You have a moral obligation to grow this thing. If you really believe in what you’re doing, you need to grow it and you need to grow your people, you need to grow your organization. You need to help more people.”

John Berry :
But he said, “I believe in what you’re doing. And if you really believe in it the way you say you’re doing it, then you need to put your money where your mouth is. Do what it takes to get there, you’re going to spend money on training people, spend money on recruiting, spend money on advertising, spend money on building better systems and invest it and go all in, because if you don’t, you’re depriving the rest of the world of this opportunity and this service. And I think if the team believes that, they’re going to fight like hell for you. And if they don’t believe it, then I think you’re going to lose people and the thing’s going to become a mess.”

John Berry :
But yeah, I think Peter Drucker said, “Culture eats strategy for breakfast.”

John Berry :
And you have to a good mission with great people. And as a leader, you have to create something that didn’t exist before, give them a new future, a bigger future. If you can’t do that, you’re not a leader.

Kevin Daisey:
Yeah. No, you have to have a mission and a vision that they believe in, that they’re behind and they’ll go all the way with you and … Yeah, completely agree with you. And yeah, for what you’re doing … Yeah, it’s your obligation to continue to push it and grow it to help more people, right. Again, the website for anyone tuning in and wants to check out what John’s up to and his firm, he has some other website as well but PTSDlawyers.com, so check that out. I love what you had to say, what you’re doing as a firm and as a leader, I think it’s a unique system you have in place there and the culture. And kudos for what you’re doing, man. What’s the next couple … Obviously, you’re pushing, right. That’s great. What’s the next couple years look like? What’s your next big goal? And I guess, yeah, give us a little insight on what you’re trying to accomplish.

John Berry :
I think really at this point, I need to get out of the way. We really went hard for about the last year. There was a guy, his name was Daniel Alarik, a former drill sergeant who started a company called Grunt Style. And so he was the founder of that company.

Kevin Daisey:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I’m familiar with that.

John Berry :
Last year, we hired him as a … I hired him as a consultant and then I realized the real flaw of a lot of consults is they’ll tell you what to do but they won’t help you implement. We brought him on a long term consulting basis to help us implement some of those things. And so we really ramped up a lot of things. We got a bunch of different software systems in and then we hired a chief operating officer who comes from an Am Law 50 firm. We grew up and I forced a lot …

Kevin Daisey:
Real quick.

John Berry :
Yeah, a lot of change. And so I fear we’re not as agile as we used to be but I can tell you, for me, you have to be very tactical when you’re trying to get the six and seven figures. By the time you hit eight figures, you got to be more strategic. And the problem is, I grew up tactical to survive, right. Now, as I develop as a leader of the organization, I need to become more strategic. And I get really frustrated when I come to meetings and I know the tactics and they’re not being executed, they’re not being executed to standard. And look, it doesn’t mean we’re not doing well but for me, like I said, I’m an obsessive, right. Look, I’m not going to give you the ball if you’re going to miss the game winning shot. I’ll just take the shot. I’m not going to let you fail. And the military is the same way, right. In training, we would send our leaders out and let them fail in the field but in deployment, now all of a sudden, we’re looking at combat situations where we’re sending leaders out.

John Berry :
Well, as much as we like to say we’re not micro managers and we’re not … We were much more cautious when something greater was at stake. This is no longer a training exercise. And I think as a leader, when you see the company growing and the vision coming into fruition and there’s real dollars at stake and real people’s jobs and futures, if you fail right, you could … And it’s not so much about me, I’ll be fine. I I’ve learned enough over my life and I could start over tomorrow, rebuild this thing in 18 to 24 months but what about all those team members, that if you fail and you let them down, to me, that’s a heavy burden. When I deployed to Iraq, I took the company and I knew that I was charged with protecting America’s sons and daughters. And I didn’t want to be the person to have to come home and say, “I failed. Let me tell you why your son or daughter isn’t coming home because of the stupid decisions that I made.”

John Berry :
Yeah. I think as a leader, it’s a heavy burden and …

Kevin Daisey:
You take all that burden on a hundred percent but you want to step in. You want to keep stepping back in and saying, “Hey, you’re not doing it this way or … ”

John Berry :
Right, right. But they’ll never grow, but they’ll never grow. And so if you can do it safely without putting life at risk, without putting the company at risk right, then you have to do that. And does that mean sometimes you’re going to lose opportunities? Yes. Does that mean sometimes you’re going to lose money? Yes. But that’s the price of developing leaders. And the only way you can grow exponentially, is to develop those leaders. You have to make a decision and you have to decide, “Am I willing to pay the price?”

John Berry :
And the price may be hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars to develop your people. And you’re going to make a lot of mistakes, they’re going to make mistakes. And those mistakes are going to be costly but as long as you can survive to fight another day and they learn from it, you’re going to grow.

Kevin Daisey:
Yeah. A hundred percent. I love it. Yeah. And it is difficult to do. And I think sometimes if you look at some of the folks you have, for me, I know when it’s … A new person that comes on the team but at some point, you’re looking at what their performance is, it’s either, “Are we coaching them up or are you coaching them out?”

John Berry :
Right.

Kevin Daisey:
And sometimes you got to make those swift decisions too but yeah, sometimes it’s hard to be like, “Okay. I know exactly what they need to do but I need to let them figure it out and make their own decision. And hopefully, they’ve learned enough from me to do the right thing.”

Kevin Daisey:
And you got to sit back …

John Berry :
Yeah, that’s where I struggle, coaching, right.

Kevin Daisey:
You to step back and be like, “Oh.”

John Berry :
Yeah.

Kevin Daisey:
Yeah, I appreciate that. I love everything you had to share, it’s spot on. Hopefully, any attorney listening to this episode would listen to it again and take everything John just said, back it up and say, “Okay, there’s a lot here.”

Kevin Daisey:
Systems and processes, EOS is amazing. If you don’t do EOS, to anyone listening, Traction I think, is a good book to read. It explains a lot about EOS but if you don’t go all in on EOS, you can start there. And then yeah, your culture is the most important thing you have. And you have to start working yourself out and having people that can grow on their own and take you to the next level. A lot of good points there. I think, especially a lot of attorneys that are listening to that maybe just started or thinking about starting their own firm. Now, imagine people at that stage right, John, where they’re like, “I’m going to start my own firm.”

Kevin Daisey:
Lawyers are not business owners and they don’t usually have any training in running a business. There’s a lot to learn.

John Berry :
Yeah. A good friend of mine, former Marine, I met him at Trial Lawyers College. He was actually from Omaha and he just left big law in D.C to go to a small practice in Colorado, where he’s the … I think it’s his father’s practice, only a couple of attorneys but now he’s got to figure out how to do everything. And I’m talking to him, I’m realizing the advice I’m giving him right now is probably the worst advice because I’m going to tell him things that are good for me now.

Kevin Daisey:
Yeah.

John Berry :
… but are not going to be good for him. They would’ve been good for me maybe 10 years ago. And I think peer groups are important, coaches are important. I think that finding people who are in that group, want to get to where you want to get, that’s great. I was in a Vistage group and it was a great group led by a phenomenal leader. One of the challenges in the group was … And we had everything from six figure to nine figure companies but some people really wanted to grow 30, 40, 50% a yeah, year after year. And then there were people there that were happy for one to 2% growth and that’s too …

Kevin Daisey:
It’s lifestyle.

John Berry :
Yeah. Yeah, the lifestyle entrepreneur. It’s just totally different philosophies. And we couldn’t really have a good conversation because they were so risk averse and we’re like, “Dude, we feel risk by not swinging the bat and you feel risk every time [inaudible 00:33:29].”

Kevin Daisey:
We’re with the wrong people here.

John Berry :
Yeah. The dynamic of one of those groups, it didn’t work well for us but I think with attorneys, it’s pretty easy to figure out who are the entrepreneurial attorneys? Who are the ones with the small groups, firms that want to grow? And surround yourself with those. And vendors too right, really vet that vendor. I love to talk to vendors and say, “Okay. Tell me who fired you. Why did they fire … Tell about your last firing, why did they fire you?”

Kevin Daisey:
Yeah.

John Berry :
And a lot of times, you’ll get a really good answer and it’s the same answer why law firms get fired, right.

Kevin Daisey:
I like that.

John Berry :
Yeah. If you can have an honest conversation, I can tell you, a good vendor, especially I would say in the digital area, can be huge. And I think what really got me going … There were a lot of things that got me going but I remember in 2015, I was working with a PPC company. And I got to tell you, they grew really quickly. And they took their talent and moved them all into leadership positions and they didn’t backfill that. And so they moved their technicians into leadership positions and it didn’t really work out too well for them but I can tell you, back then they were phenomenal. And they got me to Google New York and they told me I needed to go the ABO trade show. And they were always … I was so amazed that they were calling me, instead of me tracking them. Now, they were calling me saying, “John, you need to do this.”

John Berry :
And I’d be like, “What about this?”

John Berry :
And they’re like, “Well …”

John Berry :
I’m like, “Well yeah, but what does it cost?”

John Berry :
Like, “Dude, it doesn’t matter what it costs. Don’t you understand? You only live once. This is your life and you’re telling me you’re going to build this firm. And I’m telling you that I work in the industry and you need to learn more about the industry if you’re really going to do this. It’s great that we’re doing your digital marketing and we’re helping you grow but let’s face it, if you can grow more as a law firm, we can charge you more money, right.”

Kevin Daisey:
[inaudible 00:35:12].

John Berry :
It was like we were in a relationship for a while. Like I said, until our guy got promoted, then he was no longer our team member and they … It started out being a phenomenal relationship but then once that person was removed, the bar was so high, right. The expectation was so high and then they kept giving us substandard people that never measured up to that initial person. And so the relationship with that company didn’t work but I can tell you, that was an opportunity where the vendors were a real hero to us, where the vendors stepped up and said, “John, you need to open your eyes and see what else is in the industry. Are you doing [inaudible 00:35:45].”

Kevin Daisey:
I appreciate that story, being a digital marketing agency and wanting to know what we can do better for our clients. And so that’s a good story there.

John Berry :
Yeah, “Hey, tell us what to do.”

John Berry :
A lot of times what you guys don’t get Kevin, is you know the industry better than us. And I think it’s being bold enough to say, having the courage to say, “Look, we’re doing this. This is where you are. Tell me where you want to do this. Talk about your goals.”

John Berry :
And you may even say … Kevin, you may even say, “We’re doing all this digital stuff. It’s great man but I’d like you to put a little bit of money in social.”

John Berry :
And you’re like, “I have no vested interest in this.”

John Berry :
Or whatever it is. And I don’t know the extent of your services right now because now, it seems like there are all these opportunities but I’ve had vendors say, “Look, we don’t even do this but I think you should do this because … ”

John Berry :
And look, I think that a lot of marketing companies or companies that are providing services to law firms, should have an ascension model right where you have the bronze, silver goal because obviously Kevin, the six figure firms that you’re helping to the nine figure year firms, they have different needs. And the cost is going to be different, it just has to be. And they have different expectations.

Kevin Daisey:
Hundred percent.

John Berry :
If you’re moving them up and they’re like, “I trust Kevin because he’s telling me to do stuff that he’s not even making any money off of, but he tells me to do it. I do it, I’m making money off of it. The guy is definitely interested in my success.”

John Berry :
And sometimes too, I imagine Kevin, you have to have that difficult conversation where the attorney’s in love with their brand or some of their marketing, you’re like, “Dude, this sucks. Get out of that. You’re inauthentic, it’s horrible. Try this.”

John Berry :
Because the reality is, as attorneys, we’ve got to trust you, man. We have to trust you, especially on the digital side because that’s where the future has been for the past 10 years.

Kevin Daisey:
That long huh.

John Berry :
And it just continues to grow. You have to have somebody you can trust and someone who’s going to step in. And when I say trust, not just that they’re not going to do what they say they’re going to do when they say they’re going to do it but give you honest feedback and say, “John, dude, this whole plan is stupid.”

John Berry :
Or, “John, I know that you think that you should be on all these places.”

John Berry :
And I had somebody tell me, “You don’t want to do that with this lawyer.”

John Berry :
I said, “Why not?”

John Berry :
They said, “Well, you need to be the face.”

John Berry :
I said, “Okay. Well, that’s fine but I don’t understand, why can’t other people be the face?”

John Berry :
And finally he said, “Look, you need to be the face.”

John Berry :
And finally, I said, “No, I don’t understand. Why do I need to be the face?”

John Berry :
And finally, he said, “Look, that person has a face for radio. You can’t put that person on the billboard, right.”

John Berry :
And look, that may have been insensitive but at the end of the day, it was very honest, right.

Kevin Daisey:
Oh, I’ve seen that.

John Berry :
It was like, “Hey, that’s not going to sell.”

Kevin Daisey:
I would like to say that we do act that way but maybe we could do even more, what you’re saying. And I think for the bigger firms, the firms that are really trying to grow, you can be a little bit more aggressive and upfront with that. A smaller family law attorney that’s just trying to help people, they’re very particular but to your point, we try to say, “Hey, this is not a good idea. And the strategy that you’re proposing, while we appreciate, this is what we think you should do.”

Kevin Daisey:
We try to do that and we do recommend our clients do stuff that we don’t get paid for. We help them put podcasts together like this. We don’t do that as a service but I like what you’re saying, because I think there’s probably a lot more that we could do to push even harder because we know what works. We know what they should be doing. And sometimes, we probably think it … I should probably tell my team, “Hey, if you’re thinking it, tell them. Let’s not hide anything.”

Kevin Daisey:
That is a really good point. And where we stand, we want to help our clients. And if they grow, we grow. Yeah, good point.

John Berry :
And of course, then you get the success. [crosstalk 00:39:46] refer people to you. Once they say, “Hey, Kevin’s the expert in digital marketing and then he hooked me up with this guy who helped me shoot these amazing commercials. Kevin actually … The digital was good enough that I made enough money from working with Kevin and Array Digital, that I was able to afford some traditional. And now, I’m using traditional and digital and I’m growing like crazy but I never would’ve made the leap had Kevin and Array Digital not made me successful at this level, to help me get to the next level.”

John Berry :
And like I said, that’s the reality. And so like I said, vendors are some of our best allies. In fact, we have a vendor day once a year where we’ll give a vendor of the year award, give a nice plaque and say, “Cool, thanks.”

John Berry :
And by the way, here’s the deal. We want vendors who fit into our core values and our mission statement and respect what we do. And it’s like, “If you believe in us … ”

John Berry :
That’s really the way referrals work right, is you believe in somebody. You’re going to say, “Hey … ”

John Berry :
[inaudible 00:40:44] calls me. I say, “Kevin with Array, he’s phenomenal. He helped us with this. I know, like and trust the guy. Go do that.”

John Berry :
And then what people don’t realize about referrals, is then the referral, the attorney I just sent to you, he’s going to be grateful to me. I was just a hero to that person. And I didn’t even do anything. I just had to give him a name of Kevin who helped me. And so a lot of times in cultures too, it’s the person who knows the person who is the most influential person, right. If I know Kevin can do digital and I know who can do traditional and I know all these people, people are going to value my opinion and then that makes me feel …

Kevin Daisey:
And that’s even a stronger referral too and they’re probably going to sign on right away.

John Berry :
Hopefully, yeah.

Kevin Daisey:
Yeah. No, just attorneys … I’ve interviewed over a hundred plus attorneys this year. Most of the ones that are … They live on referrals. They care about referrals, the work they do turns into more work and we’re the same way. And we have to be that way and do good work so that we get referrals, like you’re talking about. A hundred percent. Yeah, any vendors out there listening, take note as well.

John Berry :
Your competitors are listening, Kevin.

Kevin Daisey:
They probably ar. Hey, don’t call John. Actually, you can call John if you want. We’re not working with John but … You can call John if you want but good luck. No, we actually had Scorpion … If you’re listening Scorpion, we met a bunch of Scorpion at a show and they’re like, “We watch you all’s podcast and we call your guests and this guy was telling us everything.”

John Berry :
Wow, yeah. Well, and that …

Kevin Daisey:
And Scorpion’s a $300 million company.

John Berry :
Yeah, yeah. And they got people to do that and that’s great. And at the end of the day though too, I’ve learned this the hard way too. Like I said, people tell you, go with the biggest … It’s a weird thing because if you’re small, just about anybody can help you but as you grow, you need an organization that’ll grow along with you.

Kevin Daisey:
Sure.

John Berry :
And I was told to go to these large national agencies and after paying a lot of money, I was blown away by the lack of results and talent. And I was like, “What?”

John Berry :
And they just didn’t get our brand. And they go, “Well, we got this great process and we’ve got all these great people from all over.”

John Berry :
But they seemed to be too concerned about … They were just so egotistical but they were not analytical. I was just disappointed. I think it’s very tough for lawyers. When you’re starting off, look, anybody can help you but as you grow, you have to find that right partner. Either they got to be growing along with you or you’re going to have to move up but it is one of those things where the bigger the agency, not always the better.

Kevin Daisey:
No, I understand. And I think that’s going to be our challenge, is growing, maintaining the culture and our results and what we’re doing for our clients. I think right now, for me, me and my business owner … Our partners sorry. Again, we’re a little bit over 20 folks full time. Me and my business partner bring a lot of business aspects. And we get to talk one on one with our clients from a business perspective, more than a marketing perspective because the marketing … Yeah, we know what we’re doing and our team knows what they’re doing but what’s the business relationship? What is your goals? What’s the business angle? What’s the growth goals? And then bringing that perspective, has helped us a lot.

Kevin Daisey:
As we grow, and me and my business partner aren’t able to be talking to every single client or whatever, then that’s going to definitely become more of a challenge, I think. I think really, we have to have folks in our company that we can groom and pass along, that they know that the business piece of it is almost more important than marketing. There’s a lot of tactics we can use. Our people are smart but it’s got to come out to the business, what the business is doing, what the goals are and if we understand it.

John Berry :
Yeah. And all marketing does is amplify what you’re doing, right. If you’re doing a great job, then it’s time to market. If you suck, don’t market. Fix yourself and then go market. Yeah, absolutely. And back a few years ago, it’s a long story but we had a brief opportunity to bring my brother on, who has a systems degree from Stanford, an MBA from UCLA. He’s worked at Fortune 500 companies and some startups in California. And we were working with a digital company and they were giving us answers and we didn’t like the answers and we dug in and they lied to us, there’s no …

Kevin Daisey:
No way around it.

John Berry :
And sometimes there’s a case where the salesperson and the technician are not on the same page. And that’s an honest mistake but this was one where he got down to the nitty gritty with the technician and the technician was just making stuff up.

Kevin Daisey:
[inaudible 00:45:49].

John Berry :
My brother scored a 36 on his ACT, okay. This is not a [inaudible 00:45:54]. He knows and he’s just like, “Look.”

John Berry :
And then he went back and showed that, “Okay, he lied to me. Let me show you everything.”

John Berry :
And that team member for that company pled ignorance. And I said, “Man, I don’t know. I don’t know what’s worse. Either you lied to us or you don’t even know your profession. I don’t know but this relationship’s not going to work.”

Kevin Daisey:
Yeah. Yeah, that’s not good. And sometimes salespeople, they can be a little bit … They want to tell you the best thing and they want to make everything perfect and whatever. And based on what you’ve been saying too, technicians and … And talk about technicians being promoted into roles and now they’re not doing the work. A good book for everyone is E-Myth. E-Myth is a really good book but it’s all about the entrepreneur, the manager and the technician. And when you first start, you’re really the technician. You’re a lawyer or attorney and then you have to be able to learn to hire the people in the other places and move up into the entrepreneurship role, which most people don’t really know how to do. But those technicians, they want to do the job, right. And so if you’ve got good technicians, you got to be careful about moving them up into those other roles and whatever but if you have a bad technician, that’s just …

John Berry :
Yeah.

Kevin Daisey:
You should know that right away way.

John Berry :
Yeah, yeah.

Kevin Daisey:
If you get so big, if you’re that big, then there’s a problem.

John Berry :
Yeah and that’s the challenge right, for good lawyers. If you have good systems and a good firm, you have to be involved enough to develop that technical proficiency and know what right looks like to hire the best people and ensure that they are working at that standard that you want to set. And look, I’ve got a lot of friends that are non practicing law firm owners, right. And they’re phenomenal at what they do and maybe someday I’ll reach that status but as for right now, I really enjoy still trying the cases. And I think you can train a lot of people. You can train your intake, you can train your office manager but lawyers must be developed. They can’t just be trained, they have to be developed. And so it’s a different level. And if you don’t have somebody there to develop those attorneys, then it’s you.

Kevin Daisey:
Yeah.

John Berry :
And if you don’t have that assistant, it’s you. And I think that looking back, one of the smartest things I did was hiring my own executive assistant right, to plan my travel, to do everything. Look, [crosstalk 00:48:26] this. Yeah, during a deployment. When I was in Iraq and at the time I had a … My ex-wife now but we had four month old daughter and I realized like, “I don’t have to worry about my laundry or my food, filling up my car. [Halliburton’s 00:48:42] taking care of everything”

John Berry :
And so we would go off the wire and we have to be ready to go. There was a mission but when you’d come back in the gate, food was there, there was someone to take care of your laundry. And what I really got from that experience was, “Well, wait a minute. I was so able to focus on the mission that … ”

John Berry :
I loved it. And everyone was like, “Oh, my God. You were deployed for a long time.”

John Berry :
Yeah but really, I got to focus on my mission. All the distractions in life were gone. I was getting paid no matter what. The government actually pays, the Army pays. I didn’t have to worry about mowing the lawn right, or any of that stuff and so …

Kevin Daisey:
Sounds nice.

John Berry :
Coming back, I’ve taken those things out of my life and it’s one of those things where you have that conversation with your spouse and like, “I want you to mow the lawn or clean the gutters.”

John Berry :
And you’re like, “If your billing rate is several hundred dollars an hour, why are you doing a $20 an hour task?”

John Berry :
Right.

Kevin Daisey:
Yeah, yeah. We have some of the best assistants and admin folks here. It’s just amazing and it’s necessary. And their job is to make your job easier so you can perform better and take care of the company and grow. And so yeah, a hundred percent. And all those weekend tasks, the home, all that stuff, you got to give up some of that stuff, if not all of it.

John Berry :
Yeah. Look, you’re a lawyer, pay someone to do it. And I know that may sound egotistical but look, discipline and focus are your most important traits I think, as a business owner. If anything detracts from your discipline, your focus, get rid of it. And so look at Olympic athletes right, 1% of their time is actually competition, if they’re lucky. Most of their time is in training. And when they’re training, they’re trying to be as efficient as possible. And the thing is, look, there’s no off season in business, right. As a law firm, there’s no off season. COVID gave you maybe a little break in your docket but at the end of the day … If you’re going to be the lawyer and the business owner and the manager and the visionary, you have to be at your best when you do those things and you can’t waste focus and energy on tasks that are not going to get you there. I know a lot of people will say, “Oh, so you think you’re too good to do that task.”

John Berry :
“No, I don’t think I’m too good to do that task but I do think that I’m not best serving my team or my clients. I don’t want to hire a lawyer that cleans his own toilet. I want to hire a lawyer … I want a lawyer who’s focused on my case, eat, sleeps and breathes the law.”

John Berry :
And it’s like the military and basic training, right. You show up, you’re immersed, right. From the moment you wake up to the moment you go to bed, you’re immersed in that culture. I want my lawyers to be the same way. I don’t want my lawyers to go drive two hours to mow their parents lawn. I want them to do so well and be so successful, they can pay someone to drive two hours and … Well, hopefully they just hire someone locally but the point is, you want your best players doing what they do best, well rested and focused. And I got to tell you, when I went through the army ranger school, that’s the best gift I got, other than the fact I lost 50 pounds. It was an in shape 50 pounds but when I went …

John Berry :
They deprive you of food and sleep and a real big lesson there is, when you deprive yourself of food. And I shouldn’t say food, [inaudible 00:52:09] proper nutrition and proper sleep, your decision making ability degrades. And if you’re the leader of your organization, you can’t have a bad day, one bad day could cost you the business. You have to show up ready to go every day. And so if there’s something detracting you from your readiness, your ability to perform at your best, then figure that out and take care of it.

Kevin Daisey:
Remove it, yeah. I love it man.

John Berry :
Remove it. Yeah, remove it.

Kevin Daisey:
And that becomes hard to do. I think that’s another good point, another good lesson. Find out what you’re good at and do more of that and try to remove everything else. And I always tell some of my people, even my lower … My managers, they’re like, “Oh, I need to hire another person full time to help me do this.”

Kevin Daisey:
And I’m like, “All right, do you really need to hire someone or is it maybe just some administrative work that we can get an assistant to do? Let’s write down all the crap you do that you feel you’re not best served, that’s not contributing to the overall goals of the company, make a list of all that stuff.”

Kevin Daisey:
And we find out it’s really a bunch of administrative crap that they don’t like doing every day, “Okay, cool. If we remove that from your plate, we don’t need to hire someone that costs $60,000 a year. We can get one of our admins that’s already here.”

Kevin Daisey:
Boom, they do it no problem. It’s usually those conversations too. Like, “What can we remove from your plate that you feel … ”

Kevin Daisey:
And so from our technicians or from our managers, we try to go through that exercise every once in a while too. Not just for what I’m doing but what are they doing that they don’t need to be doing? We got away from time tracking. We went to unlimited time off. Time sheets were costing. We added up the hours and it was insane. And our people were very upset about having to do them, they just weren’t very verbal about it.

John Berry :
Right.

Kevin Daisey:
Just things like that. A hundred percent agree. If you can get stuff off your plate, no matter what business you’re in, take yourself out of it. And I probably need to work on that a lot myself.

John Berry :
And I think as you grow too, you find that out of necessity, you became good at a lot of tasks but there’s only two or three things you’re great at. And the key right, the secret to happiness and success in life, I think is to figure out those two or three things and only do them. And so you really have to look at, “Who can take all these other things off my plate? Is this something I really get energy from and enjoy doing or am I good at it but it sucks the life out of me?”

Kevin Daisey:
Yeah.

John Berry :
If that’s the case, then you got to hire somebody to do it.

Kevin Daisey:
Yeah. All right, man. Well, I appreciate it. I don’t want to take up more of your time. I didn’t have to pay John yet to do this episode but we’re coming up on an hour or so. You might send me a bill here soon. Well, John man, I appreciate it. You said a lot of good stuff. We went a little long, which is totally cool. I appreciate you sharing everything. And I think everyone should listen to this episode. I think this is a amazing episode and a lot of good points, a lot of good content. Check John out at the website below, PTSDlawyers.com. Again, he has some other what websites as well. You can check out, I think … What’s the other one?

John Berry :
Berylawfirm.com.

Kevin Daisey:
Berrylawfirm.com. Check that as well if you’re listening to this on audio. If you’re on with video, this episode will be up on our website, arraylaw.com/podcast, also be up on on YouTube, my LinkedIn, Facebook. We’ll put Instagram stories out soon John, featuring you. We’ll probably pull a ton of good content from this. Be looking out for that everyone as well. We’ll be tagging you John, and your firm. Bob, on your team, we can share this all with him so you guys have full access to it to use how you want. And yeah.

John Berry :
Great.

Kevin Daisey:
If anyone out there needs to grow like John and you think digital marketing will help, you can check us out. Reach out at arraylaw.com, happy to help you meet your goals and at least just have the conversation, even if it’s just question. Open for that, you don’t have to be a client if you’re just starting out or if you’re like John and you’re crushing it. Feel free to reach out to me. John, anything else you want to share before we stop recording.

John Berry :
Just hey, crushing it doesn’t … You may think we’re crushing it, it never feels like crushing it. Winning always feels like losing until the end of the game, right. Winning is very painful. I’m a big fan of Tim Grover, who wrote the book, Winning, and Relentless. And I’ll tell you that I know it may seem like that but next level, next devil. And I think the more you grow, the more it’s important you have vendors and partners who grow along with you. Kevin, like I said, I like to see someone like Array Digital, who grows alongside us, as opposed to someone who’s either stagnant or they’re growing at a much more rapid rate that they’re going to outgrow us and not need us anymore. And I think the key is to have those relationships with your team members, with your vendors, that everybody understands, you’re growing, you’re doing something awesome. And you want them to come along for the ride. And not everybody’s going to be on the train forever.

John Berry :
At some point, there will be team members that will get off. There will be vendors that will get off. At some point, it’s going to be time for you to go, right. The graveyards are filled with replaceable people and as I look down every day, I think about, “How do I replace myself? Where am I weak, where I could be replaced? Or where am I doing something I just don’t like that I could be replaced?”

John Berry :
And hey, look, we started our own PPC campaign in 2006. And we did a lot of own SEO and we were pretty good but the reality is, back then, if I could have had an Array Digital step in and say, “John, what are you doing? You’re a lawyer, you need to be the best lawyer you can be. Hire us or hire the best digital company to take care of this for you and go be the best.”

John Berry :
I wish I had that advice back then. Kevin, thanks again for having me. It’s been a pleasure and an honor.

Kevin Daisey:
Yeah man, I appreciate it very much. And thanks for coming on. Thanks for sharing your story. Again, tons of good content and tips out of this and hope everyone enjoys it. And thanks for tuning in again. John, stay on with me a second. We’ll stop recording, it’ll take a second. Everyone else, have a great day and go out there, be the best you can.

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