Jonathan Miller

Kevin Daisey:
All right, we are recording. Welcome everyone as you’re tuning in and any platform you’re tuning in from. We’re here for another live recording of The Managing Partners Podcast. My name’s Kevin Daisey. I’ll be your host. I’m also the founder of Array Digital. We are a digital marketing agency that helps law firms grow and fill their pipelines, so please reach out to us if you need any of that assistance. Today, I got a special guest, coming all the way from New Mexico and he’s in a really cool spot right now as we’re recording. I’ll let him talk more about that in a second, but Jonathan Miller, welcome to the show.

Jonathon Miller:
Thank you so much. It’s great to be here. I’m actually coming to you live from a Denny’s in Truth or Consequences, New Mexico.

Kevin Daisey:
So before we get into some good questions, you told me where you are and you’re in between, it sounds like you’re traveling for work.

Jonathon Miller:
Right. I live in Albuquerque. My office is in Albuquerque. I’m doing a trial all week in Las Cruces, New Mexico and this is basically the only place with internet in between Albuquerque and Las Cruces.

Kevin Daisey:
Oh, so it sounds like you’re in the middle of nowhere almost. So what was the name of the town that you’re in right now? Really cool.

Jonathon Miller:
Truth or Consequences. There was a contest, I think in the fifties, the town was called Hot Springs, New Mexico and the first town who changed their name got some big prize and they stuck with it. I’ve actually used this place as a setting in some of my books. It’s a great resort town, amazing hot springs.

Kevin Daisey:
Oh wow.

Jonathon Miller:
And I’ve stopped… I stop at this Denny’s about once a week on the way to somewhere else, usually.

Kevin Daisey:
That’s awesome, and what I heard was Denny’s is got some pecan pancakes going on right now.

Jonathon Miller:
Amazing special, get them.

Kevin Daisey:
All right. If you’re tuning in, this is not sponsored by Denny’s. They didn’t pay us this to push this, but go by and check it out. But let’s say we’re enjoying some coffee while we’re recording today.

Jonathon Miller:
Hide them. [inaudible 00:02:11].

Kevin Daisey:
It’s Monday people. I don’t know if this comes out of on Monday or not, but it’s Monday as recording this so, need a little extra coffee today. So Jon, tell us about your journey, your story. Jon’s also an author, which we’ll get to that as well. He’s put out a lot of different books, but as from an attorney’s perspective, other attorneys listening to this show or watching to pick up some good tips, tell us your journey about becoming an attorney and how you got to where you are today.

Jonathon Miller:
Well, originally I wanted to do environmental law. I went to Cornell undergrad, where I had this background in the urban and regional planning. I went to University of Colorado Law School because they’ve got this incredible environmental natural resources program. And my first job out of law school was in Washington, D.C. at the department of interior. And I had this great job of doing real fascinating natural resources work. I was in the energy and resources division.

Jonathon Miller:
And now hang onto your hat, because things are going to get crazy. Budget cuts hit. I lose my job. I work for Congress for free for a little bit, for a couple of weeks. I had a brief detour where I checked out being an urban planner in Chicago. But again, I’m still reeling from losing my job and I become a public defender in Roswell, New Mexico. Yes, that Roswell New Mexico.

Kevin Daisey:
The Roswell.

Jonathon Miller:
Literally as I’m going down there, I see a sign that says, “Watch for rattlesnakes,” on Highway 285, literally on the county line as you’re coming into Roswell. I made a vow that I was going to get a book and that book would be called Rattlesnake Lawyer. And it took 10 years, but Rattlesnake Lawyer, which started out as a diary, eventually became a very… It’s been optioned. It’s optioned now.

Kevin Daisey:
Oh, cool.

Jonathon Miller:
But that was my first book about being a public defender in Roswell.

Kevin Daisey:
That’s super cool.

Jonathon Miller:
I then had what’s called a conflict contract, all over New Mexico. That’s when I started… I left Roswell and I moved back to Albuquerque and I started traveling around. And then I almost was, my show… We wrote a script based on Rattlesnake Lawyer. The book hasn’t been published yet, and it’s optioned. The joke I make, which is actually true is, it was rejected by a major network because it wasn’t compelling. So I moved to LA to get compulsion and I have a masters at the American Film Institute in screenwriting.

Jonathon Miller:
It’s going to get even crazier. My book is published the day I graduate from film school. I write on a TV show and then my dad has cancer, so show’s canceled. My dad has cancer. I move back to New Mexico. I blink, and 20 years have passed.

Jonathon Miller:
So, I build my own practice, and yet all my other experiences I’ve incorporated into what I do. I always joke that the times I do closing arguments, that I’ve copied directly from one of my books, and vice versa.

Kevin Daisey:
Oh, wow. Interesting. Well, since we’re talking about it, check out some of this information you can see on his website, rattlesnakelaw.com. That’s on the screen if you’re watching via video, but rattlesnakelaw.com. But check it out, he’s got some interesting stuff there. A unique brand for those lawyers and attorneys out there, that’s just different and I think should take a look at what he’s up to, what he’s doing. You have multiple books up on Amazon as well.

Jonathon Miller:
Right. And right now my book Luna Law won the Tony Hillerman Award for fiction in 2017. And that was about a lawyer who is going against an evil corporation. I always wanted to write one of those corporate thrillers.

Kevin Daisey:
That’s awesome.

Jonathon Miller:
I based it on some cities that you don’t normally hear about, like T or C was in that one. Deming, New Mexico. And there’s a town called Carrizozo New Mexico, where I’ve done a lot of cases as well. So I travel a lot and I wanted to incorporate it along with… I’ve done a lot in Santa Fe and Los Alamos, but I’m all over the state.

Kevin Daisey:
So you practice in New Mexico.

Jonathon Miller:
Right. Right now, I’ve got a conflict contract where I can go anywhere.

Kevin Daisey:
Okay.

Jonathon Miller:
But I do a lot in Southern New Mexico in Las Cruces, Alamogordo, Carrizozo which is an interesting place. I’m on the road at least two days a week, sometimes three.

Kevin Daisey:
Okay. I’ve actually never been New Mexico, but that sounds like a really interesting place. So one day, hopefully I get out there. Well, so from your law perspective, tell us a little bit more about the clients you help. Areas of practice that you really, I guess, specialize in.

Jonathon Miller:
I sometimes joke that, I have what’s called the conflict contract, if the public defender gets first choice, two people rob a bank, I get the second bank robber. Sometimes I also call it, the breakdown docket, where if a lawyer has a breakdown of some kind, or gets in trouble, I get their cases through the contract as well.

Kevin Daisey:
Oh, okay. Interesting.

Jonathon Miller:
I had a guy in Eastern New Mexico, literally had some kind of nervous breakdown and I inherited 30 cases and had to take them over.

Kevin Daisey:
Wow.

Jonathon Miller:
And that got me started doing the real hardcore criminal defense. I do everything except murders, however I’ve represented murderers on burglaries.

Kevin Daisey:
Gotcha. Okay. Interesting. That helps me understand a little bit about it. I guess the conflict contract though, that’s something that’s new to me. I’m not an attorney of course, but that’s a new one. I haven’t heard anyone talking about that.

Jonathon Miller:
Well, I’m not sure… In New Mexico where there’s actually something called the conflict contract, where I don’t get the cases from the public defender, I get them from another entity connected to the public defender. Usually I get as many as 20 a month, usually in Southern New Mexico, but I have one case in the Northwest … And I did one in a town, and then there’s… I didn’t even realize New Mexico has an Oklahoma border, but there’s a town called Clayton, New Mexico and I did a case there, just so I have appeared in every single county in New Mexico, except one.

Kevin Daisey:
Well you got to get you a case over there.

Jonathon Miller:
I actually asked for it. It’s Harding County, population 600.

Kevin Daisey:
It might take a little while, but you could check off that one, you’re good to go. So give us a little bit more information. What are some of the things that you’ve done, to get your name out there, to get clients in the door? And obviously, you’re getting these cases now because of the position you’re in. Is there another method that’s worked well for you to have people that are looking for help, for your services, finds you through any means of marketing, or anything like that you’ve done that’s really helped- [crosstalk 00:10:09]

Jonathon Miller:
I did try what was called jail mail, and that was a disaster. It was very expensive and where you send it out. There are people that are doing a lot more jail mail than I am, so I literally did one barrage of mail and then never did it again. Ironically- [crosstalk 00:10:28]

Kevin Daisey:
Is that where that’s actually going to the jails?

Jonathon Miller:
Where it’s like, “So, hear you’ve been arrested, hope we can help.” And I decided that I wasn’t comfortable with that. There’s some people that are doing that and doing really well. But another thing I’ve started doing, and again I’d like some input from some of your listeners, is I’ve gotten serious about my photography in that, I drive as much as 6000 miles a month. It’s now down to about 2000, and usually if I’m leaving at dawn, like right here there’s this incredible lake. I will take a picture of the sunrise over the lake. I’ve started posting my pictures, my photography, on Instagram.

Kevin Daisey:
Nice.

Jonathon Miller:
Not necessarily on my own page, but on the New Mexico Photography page… LinkedIn, I think that’s how you guys found me. I just posted a picture of The Balloon Fiesta, and it’s been seen by almost over 15,000 people.

Kevin Daisey:
Oh wow. That’s awesome.

Jonathon Miller:
The New Mexico public defender is now revamping their website. And I literally organized all my photos, because I take photos of court houses as well. Hopefully you can show the one of the Albuquerque courthouses, with a reflection. Sometimes I get as many as a thousand people liking or looking at my stuff, and every once in a while, it leads to the rare private client.

Kevin Daisey:
Interesting.

Jonathon Miller:
So I’m turning it over to your listeners or viewers or whatever they are. How do I synthesize my photography with, the other thing, with marketing, because I’d love to. I think my photography shows that I’m willing to go anywhere in a moment’s notice.

Kevin Daisey:
No, that’s actually really interesting, that’s really cool. I’m trying to think in my mind right now, as a marketer myself, just things you can do, but what I have seen people be successful at, from a attorney standpoint. One, they’re just putting out some quick videos, tips, or they’re doing stories and posting things that might resonate with folks. I don’t… There’s a way to maybe to use a photo as a backdrop for some other things you could do to talk about what you do, or tips about things or, I’m not sure. But I’m sure there’s something you could do that would be pretty unique to what you see out there, that’s for sure.

Jonathon Miller:
One thing that’s cool is I took a picture of a courthouse, and a judge’s secretary liked the picture so much that the picture of the courthouse is now in the judge’s office.

Kevin Daisey:
Oh awesome.

Jonathon Miller:
So presumably every lawyer that’s called into the judge’s office is going to say, “Wow, that’s a picture of the courthouse. Who took that?” And hopefully it’ll lead to something from a referral or something.

Kevin Daisey:
Well, it’s like a little bit of guerrilla marketing or grassroots. But if you could do something around the whole concept of, you do travel, you go anywhere, and play off that and the photos are just a part of that, and just get the word out. The, “Hey, have you heard of this guy? He goes all around and he tries cases all around the state, and he takes these beautiful photos.” It sounds like you can do something really cool and unique and different with that, where I’ve never heard of attorneys being photographers, or authors that much.

Jonathon Miller:
Well, one other thing if I can… In January, my photography is going to be up in a restaurant in Albuquerque for how they have photography on the wall. I don’t know whether to give a plug, but I want to make sure it’s up, and hopefully you can give a link to that when that’s confirmed, but things are looking-

Kevin Daisey:
Oh cool.

Jonathon Miller:
[crosstalk 00:14:44] but it’s kind of deal to have my photography up in one of the leading restaurants in Albuquerque and that’s going to be a big deal.

Kevin Daisey:
That’s awesome. Well, send the link over to us and we’ll see if we can get it out to everyone. But maybe you’ll make more money off photography than cases.

Jonathon Miller:
Well, no, I’ve figured out how to… I call it, I’m having my Jerry Maguire moment. I don’t know if you’ve seen the film Jerry Maguire, where-

Kevin Daisey:
Yes.

Jonathon Miller:
… in the start he realizes he has too many clients. And I want to cut down a little bit and spend a little bit more on my other passions, just because I want to be able to give all my clients all the attention they deserve. And also, I mean literally, there’s nothing quite like after you’ve had a tough day in court or a tough day in the office when you see this incredible sunset, and I now know all the places around New Mexico to go to capture the best sunsets and sunrises.

Kevin Daisey:
Oh, that’s awesome. No, I get you. I hear that a lot. We’ve interviewed quite a bit of managing partners here, at this point in time, over 130 I believe, this year. So I hear a lot of different perspectives and people have different goals and places they’re going and places they’ve been. But it seems pretty common that, not just tons of phone calls and anyone calling, versus a controlled amount of the right types of people calling, so that you can give them the right amount of time. So, yeah. I think that’s a pretty common theme with everybody that I’ve talked to that’s running a law firm, running a practice. Yeah, let’s put our thinking caps on and think about what you can do with that, but I think it’s pretty unique, it’s pretty cool what you’re doing.

Kevin Daisey:
What is your, you just hinted to that, but what’s the plans look like for you, the next two, three, five years? We’re coming out of COVID hopefully things have… I’m not sure how that affected you as well, but what is it looking like for the next couple of years for you?

Jonathon Miller:
Well, going back to COVID, my novel that’s up for three awards is called Rattlesnake Funeral, and I’ve done probably more jury trials during COVID times than almost any other attorney in the state. And that has certainly been interesting. And also, I’ve learned to do Zoom and I’ve actually, one of the scenes in the book is based on real life, where I had two phones and a computer and I have to say, “Jon Miller for so-and-so. Jon Miller for so-and-so. Jon Miller for so-and-so,” and, “Star six to unmute.” So that has affected things. I don’t have to travel as much as I used to, and that’s a good thing, because I used to… They’re now letting us call in.

Kevin Daisey:
Yeah, yeah.

Jonathon Miller:
We do video hearings when they didn’t use to, so that has changed. I’d like to keep providing high quality service to my clients, and again as I said, I’d like to synthesize everything, that if you hear me talk about being a writer, maybe you’ll hire me. But another thing, and this is something I would like to talk to your listeners about, is I always see these CLEs about storytelling and I look at the people doing them and I’ve never heard of them. They haven’t written. It’s not John Grisham, who’s a practicing attorney or a Scott Turow, it’s somebody who’s… Again, I don’t know these people, but I would like to go into that, and I would like to help lawyers write books without getting in trouble. And again, or digital marketers, I’m sure you’ve got a book in you somewhere. Everybody does.

Kevin Daisey:
My partner just put out a book recently, but I definitely have some ideas in the hopper. I just haven’t acted on them yet. But no, I think that’s really cool. I actually had an attorney on from Alabama a couple of weeks ago. He set up his own training and CLE course, for lawyers, and they benefit by just doing it themselves. Just to be the best accident attorneys they can be. But they have people from around the state, in Alabama anyway, signing up for this thing. And it’s actually profitable for them, I believe too. But I thought it was interesting, that I haven’t heard before. So you’re talking about offering some similar type of-

Jonathon Miller:
Yeah, but-

Kevin Daisey:
Workshop?

Jonathon Miller:
… in addition to the law, again writing workshops, I’ve actually spoken at Southwest Writers, which is the leading writing group in New Mexico about, my topic was, how to turn your life into a novel and not get sued. And again, you’ve got to pick… Before me, I always remember how you do marketing, I knew a woman who did PR and her idea is… Her novel was a PR person going in to do a campaign, has to solve a mystery. And actually it was pretty good book. I think it also won some awards. And not just do it for lawyers, but every single lawyer wants to write a book, and has had something in their life worth turning into a story, and I do have a master’s in it from one of the best film schools in the country.

Kevin Daisey:
That’s excellent. That’s awesome. That’s different. Yeah. Well, anyone listening, if you’re thinking about writing a book and I’m assuming… I mean, I think everyone has the ability to put out a book or write a book. They have something different. A unique story. I think it’s a lot of people don’t take that step to do it.

Jonathon Miller:
Wait, you’re in Virginia, or where are you guys at?

Kevin Daisey:
Yeah, we’re in Virginia. Yep.

Jonathon Miller:
Well I actually lived in Arlington and one quick story which will be applicable to everything. I didn’t get my job at Department of Interior right away, and it took a couple months. There was a time it looked like I wasn’t going to get it. So my first professional writing was for Washington City Paper called, I Fought the Law and the Law Won, about not getting a job. And I wrote about that, and in some ways, that’s what started this whole process.

Kevin Daisey:
Oh, cool.

Jonathon Miller:
And the fact that I didn’t get the big oil and gas job, energy job, is another factor on why I started. Being a public defender in Roswell was obviously not my first choice, but by doing that, I learned so much. And I learned that I love stories and I do like helping people too, so if you put… The moral of the story is, if you don’t get what you want, sometimes you can get what you need.

Kevin Daisey:
Yeah. And I think, again I ask every attorney that I have on here that’s done their own thing and they all, interestingly enough have… They didn’t pick or choose necessarily where they are today. And they went through this, into this field and then in this. Some didn’t want to be attorneys. And it’s interesting to see where they end up at the end of the day, and then they end up being in the places they want to be, eventually.

Jonathon Miller:
Yeah.

Kevin Daisey:
Just like you, you got passions, you want to do things outside of what you’re doing too, and you want more time towards that. That’s where you want to be. I think that’s great, but everyone has a story. Some have better ones than others. But yeah, I think that’s really cool. It’s really interesting. I appreciate sharing those things here, because again, it’s different, it’s unique. I’ll put the website up again too. I think you guys should check it out-

Jonathon Miller:
Thank you.

Kevin Daisey:
… and see some of the… I mean it’s, maybe eccentric, your brand. Check out the website. I mean, some of the stuff he’s done is actually pretty cool, but I’m trying to think about how I can really leverage the photography and some of the other things that you’re doing. I think helping attorneys with the writing side, at least have sent us some stuff up for that, I think that’s a great angle for sure. But how to pull it all together, I’m going to have some more thought on that for sure. Yeah, I’m going to think about that one. Is there another way that people can reach out and connect? Is there any social media platforms? You mentioned Instagram, what is your Instagram handle?

Jonathon Miller:
It’s Rattlesnake Law. My corporation’s now called Crotalus Law, which means rattlesnake in Latin.

Kevin Daisey:
Oh really? Okay.

Jonathon Miller:
But my website is rattlesnakelaw.com. My email, I don’t know whether to put that, what the heck. It’s jon, J-O-N, @rattlesnakelaw.com and I’m on LinkedIn. I’m hitting 20,000 people on LinkedIn. I’m on Facebook as both Jonathan Miller, and Jonathan Miller The Rattlesnake Lawyer and Instagram is where you can see my photography.

Kevin Daisey:
Okay, excellent. Yeah. I’m just at the bottom of the page here. If you’re watching, if you’re listening, @rattlesnakelaw is his handle. I’m going to check that out too Jon, because I haven’t actually gotten a chance to check that out yet.

Jonathon Miller:
I’m not on Twitter though. I made it a point not to get on Twitter.

Kevin Daisey:
Hey, you can’t do them all.

Jonathon Miller:
No, you can’t.

Kevin Daisey:
Another lesson for anyone listening. I mean, we want to be everywhere. For me, as a marketer, and especially for the clients that we help, you got to choose the one that you really can do well at, really and do good at it. And if, then you want to take it to another platform, I think it makes sense, but you can’t have one where you just, you set the account up, you never post anything and it’s just dead. Try to pick a platform you think is going to work well. And interestingly enough Jon, we’ve had some attorneys on here that have found their own little successes, like I think you should do. There was an older gentleman we had on from Kentucky, who had 500,000 followers on Tik-Tok. Yeah. A guy that should probably… I don’t know how he did it.

Kevin Daisey:
And then we’ve had a divorce attorney that’s in Colorado that has a podcast and they get a ton of clients from their podcast, talking about divorce. So there’s just everyone out there doing their own little thing and some of these folks have found success with something that you would typically think wouldn’t be, or work for a law firm.

Jonathon Miller:
Right.

Kevin Daisey:
I think you got to do your thing and pave your own path, and I think once you find something that’s different and unique then you just got to run with it.

Jonathon Miller:
I agree.

Kevin Daisey:
Yeah, so I love what you’re doing. It’s really cool. Anything else you want to share before? So you got some new books coming out. If you go on Amazon and you can search for Rattlesnake Lawyer.

Jonathon Miller:
Yes. The first book. The two books out right now are Rattlesnake Funeral, which is a COVID legal thrower. It’s not really based on a real story, but my real experiences. I think I’m up to about 12 cases during COVID of wearing a mask while you’re doing closing arguments and visiting clients in the jail, wearing a mask, and all those crazy things that I’ve had to do. And I have another book, I also wrote this book called the Shakespeare Incident, because I started in Roswell. There really is a town called Shakespeare in New Mexico, and I just went with it. And the main character, of course, is named Denny in that one. Couldn’t resist that, giving a plug.

Kevin Daisey:
That’s awesome.

Jonathon Miller:
I don’t know when this is going to be coming out, but I find out on Friday whether I win. I’m up for six New Mexico book awards. I’ve won the Hillerman Award, but I guess this year I’m competing against Anne Hillerman for the Hillerman Award, so I kind of think she’s going to get it. [crosstalk 00:27:21]

Kevin Daisey:
I mean, that’s not even fair, right?

Jonathon Miller:
Yeah. I know.

Kevin Daisey:
I mean it should be disqualified.

Jonathon Miller:
I’ll let you know how I do. Hopefully, I’ve won it once before for Luna Law. Hopefully I’ll win it. I’ll just be happy if I place, but I’m a finalist in six categories. My best showing ever. So again, it’s always great, and here, they’re being really nice to me here in Denny’s in T or C.

Kevin Daisey:
Yeah. It’s interesting. I’ll throw this little story out real quick. Me and my business partner, Eric, who’s the other host of this show, The Managing Partners podcast. Me and him when we first started this company, started doing weekly lunches, a partner lunch, to discuss business. And we met at Denny’s every week for two years. And we knew the wait staff, we knew everyone there. And when COVID hit, we went and worked from home for a while and we haven’t really got back in tune with it. I’m in the office today. We’re back in the office now for the most part. But yeah, we sat at Denny’s and talked business pretty much every week and they always give to us and it was a cool little spot, and be like, “Denny’s? Really?” Like, “Yeah.” [crosstalk 00:28:35].

Jonathon Miller:
All right, well then I got to tell you one last story, which is a feature of my first book, Rattlesnake Lawyer, not at this particular restaurant. But, doing criminal law, I’ll go to a lot of small towns, and I started out and this happened in Roswell, where you have the waitress or waiter is somebody that you’ve represented, or is a mother or father of somebody that you’re currently representing. I was waited on by the mother of a murderer, and the question is, “How much do you tip?” If it’s a good meal and service is good, do you tip extra? If service is bad, do you tip less?

Kevin Daisey:
Yeah.

Jonathon Miller:
And I’ll leave that to your viewers.

Kevin Daisey:
Well, I’m sure you get a lot of people around there in New Mexico, so you travel around a lot and then you probably get to see a lot of folks, but I think it’s awesome what you’re doing. Definitely just your story traveling around and trying cases, it sounds like a movie or a good book to me.

Jonathon Miller:
All right, sounds good.

Kevin Daisey:
Yeah, keep it up and thanks for coming on and sharing your story. It’s really unique. Really cool. So everyone listening, I think you be you. Do your thing and don’t be afraid to put it out there and make sure you love what you do. That’s important. So, Jon, thanks for sharing your story today. Everyone, we’ll see you later. Jon you stay on for just a second and we’ll talk backstage. Have a great day and just keep it going. Talk to you soon.